324 pointsby hilux7 days ago45 comments
  • saidinesh57 days ago
    During my middle school days, we lived in a small town for a little while (read: A place where i was allowed to take my bicycle out onto the main road).

    After school, I used to spend a lot of time just hanging out around some TV and radio repair shops and just watched them work. They used to be friendly and gave me parts like spare motors, lights that were lying around from broken Walkmans they wouldn't repair. I took those motors and added to my bicycle as a "dynamo light" , built "wired RC car" etc ...

    Fast forward to a few years ago when i got into building racing drones, soldering certain tiny wires was difficult for me. I went to a nearby mobile repair shop to get that done and he was happy to help me out.

    I owe a lot of my curiosity and my knowledge today to these repair shops.

    It's not a good thing that our electronics are becoming less and less repairable these days. No wonder these repair shops are vanishing as the time progresses.

    The closest thing to that we have these days are makerspaces. At our local makerspace we encourage people try to fix their broken electronics instead of throwing them away. But I feel like there should be more.

    • gloxkiqcza7 days ago
      All tech is becoming more and more integrated and purposefully locked down. Everything from operating systems to cars. It’s truly a shame. I think many of us tinkerers/hackers have a similar story to yours - something grabs your attention when you’re a child and develops into an engineering knack later on.
      • vladms7 days ago
        All tech or all physical tech? For now software managed to somehow go in the opposite direction. In the '90s many / lots of operating systems / tools / libraries were paid / hard to access, today we have lots of (open-source) stuff for people to tinker with.

        Tinkering with physical stuff is also good and should be encouraged / supported, but let's also be careful not to loose the software tinkering (for example by not permitting in any shape rooting mobile devices).

        • coretx7 days ago
          No, most people are stuffing everything into the application layer, or worse, a web/mobile app these days and don't know how to fix anything below it. I know many "programmers" who can neither configure a SME/Enterprise firewall or switch nor build their own PC or server from parts. Also, during the 90's everything was easy to find and access. Piracy was the norm and FOSS was booming.
          • vladms7 days ago
            The field exploded though, both in terms of complexity and of number of people involved. I know many engineers that can do from compiler optimizations to web apps. I also know "programmers" that don't want to learn a new library because it stresses them.

            Lots of tech we currently rely on is built under FOSS model (thinking web stuff, mobile stuff, os stuff, data center stuff). Of course you must choose to use it, but I find nowadays using Linux daily on desktop as easy as using Windows or MacOS. 20 years ago you had to fight drivers, file formats, browser issues, media formats, lack of software (I mean we run many Windows video-games on Linux without issues, how cool is that?!)

            I did not check piracy lately because I find FOSS alternatives (or I can afford to buy some stuff).

            • coretx7 days ago
              The house of cards is build with far more than just libs. And everything you just mentioned came at a price.
          • foobarchu6 days ago
            > I know many "programmers" who can neither configure a SME/Enterprise firewall or switch

            This is a very weird baseline to use for qualifying a programmer. Firewall configuration is completely irrelevant for most programmers and has been for decades. It is objectively not a programming task, it's just something that might get foisted upon a programmer if there is nobody else to do it.

            • chupya day ago
              Not op but how I understood it is that until recently the majority of programmers were geeks and liked to tinker and understand the systems they were writing and deploying code on.

              Not sure that this is the case now, nonetheless it can be a good thing that people are specializing and concerned just on the frameworks or design patterns.

        • Nextgrid6 days ago
          Even proprietary software in those times was accessible via piracy, and was generally tolerated/accepted as long as it wasn't for profit (in fact it benefited the software authors by allowing users to learn the usage of their software, for which they'd then push their future employers to buy).
        • const_cast7 days ago
          [dead]
      • yason7 days ago
        Question is what domain/field is the next virgin frontier for hackers, unspoiled of commercial greed and integrated and locked down solutions, where you can still not only buy things but also own them, and rebuild from parts what you bought when it breaks down?
        • dghlsakjg7 days ago
          There are all sorts of things like this, but one that springs to mind is drones, specifically FPV drones. You can build a very good drone from basically parts that runs on open firmware. The videos that you see coming out of Ukraine is clearly using flight control software that is basically the standard for non commercial drones. Nothing more cyberpunk than fighting fascists using open source software and commodity hardware.
          • 9rx7 days ago
            What seems to be lacking is the path to accidental discovery that underlies these stories from the past. Is there a reasonable way people will find themselves building drones without being intentional about it?
            • dghlsakjg6 days ago
              The normal progression is that you had a commercially built one, and one of two things happened. 1. It was a prebuilt FPV drone and you need to repair it after smashing it into something at mach Jesus or 2. You bought a DJI, which is really a camera platform, and you want a drone that can fly at mach Jesus and do the cool aerobatics so that pulls you into the FPV genre where you buy a prebuilt or just build from scratch.

              Drones are just an example, there are plenty of other areas where people might get sucked into DIY electroncisbuilding. E-skateboard/bike/scooter modification and fixing, keyboard hobbyists, cosplay, 3d printing, home automation etc...

            • saidinesh57 days ago
              Not accidental, but government restrictions are the main reason people built their own drones here. Government banned import of drones here back then. Only way to fly and have fun was build your own. build them part by part.

              I have built them for dozens of non technical friends too. And then they themselves got into fixing them once they broke. Solder the wires. Get parts 3d printed etc..

        • saidinesh57 days ago
          Embedded systems for sure.

          Eg. Home Automation with custom LED strips + an ESP32 (via. tasmota, esphome etc...), Wireless sensors using the same, FPV Drones and RC toys/cars in general, 3D printers, Custom keyboards are the usual gateway hobbies in my experience. I haven't seen anyone who is into one of these and hasn't explored the others.

      • einpoklum7 days ago
        > Everything from operating systems ...

        The subtle reference to systemd has not escaped our notice; and it is truly a shame.

      • HPsquared7 days ago
        We (in the West, at least) live in an age of vendor lock-in. In the East, it's state lock-in but vendor freedom.
        • intrasight7 days ago
          There are plenty of places where both are locked in
          • HPsquared7 days ago
            I suppose, but they are free to pirate Disney movies or whatever. Maybe "freedom" wasn't the right word for lack of IP protection.
    • Cthulhu_7 days ago
      My dad has set up a repair cafe near where he lives, and they're popping up in loads of places now. While some electronics are hard / impossible to repair, sure, there's still a lot that can be done with the rest. Household appliances, for example.

      The main issue of course is cost; these places are volunteer run, but to make a living out of anything you need to charge an X amount per hour, and if the repair is more expensive than a replacement it's simply not worth it.

      All the e-waste going to e.g. India like in the article is stuff where repairing it where it comes from is not worth it.

      • pjc507 days ago
        > The main issue of course is cost;

        This is exactly it, and it's a similar issue to what people talk about with clothing (Shein etc). Although clothing isn't automated, that really is just cheap labour.

        We have all these electronic artefacts in the first place because of highly integrated processes (starting with the "integrated circuit" itself!), done on mostly-automated production lines. But the automated processes rely on rigid standardization: all the inputs must also be new and precisely in-spec. You can't easily "undo-redo" part of the manufacturing process to fix something.

        As a society gets richer through automation, things which still require humans get relatively more expensive. This is known as "Baumol cost disease", the phenomenon that things like education and healthcare are much more expensive than consumer goods because the latter can be automated and outsourced while the former can't.

        People will pick cheap-unrepairable over expensive-repairable almost all the time. The awkward corner is expensive-unrepairable, which is becoming an issue (see John Deere vs right to repair).

      • saidinesh57 days ago
        > The main issue of course is cost; these places are volunteer run

        There is cost, and there's also the companies/devices themselves. We are losing modularity. With almost no benefit to the user.

        I mean companies have the audacity to solder an SSD to the motherboards of laptops. And make the batteries - one of the biggest points of failure - non user replaceable. We had all that. It was cheap. It was user friendly. When one failed, you were able to replace it yourself.

        Once there is enough momentum on letting users fix these failing parts themselves, the ecosystems would automatically fix themselves imo. That's one of the things that companies like Framework, Valve etc.. seem to do really well with their hardware endeavors.

        • iszomer6 days ago
          Framework and Valve are brands for their end products but the meat of the argument really should be what occurs in the background, eg: formal contractual and agreement say, the integration of a Sony co-designed and manufactured camera component and its integration into an Apple iPhone for example, as well as all the intermediaries involved up and down the chain.
    • sandeep19987 days ago
      reminded me of my own childhood.
  • spaceman_20207 days ago
    A few years ago, I wanted to add more RAM to a Lenovo laptop. I opened the thing, remove the RAM, and like a complete idiot, switched on the power without any RAM in the slot.

    The laptop refused to start.

    I took it to the Lenovo center and they said about 7-10 days and a minimum of Rs 10,000 (about $150 in those days).

    Since this was too much for an old laptop, I looked for alternatives. Someone suggested a repair shop in Nehru Place, New Delhi

    This was tucked into the back of the basement of a big tower. A tiny 10x10 room filled with laptop parts

    The guy at the counter looked at the laptop, opened it up, twisted some wires around, added another few wires, and the thing was working again

    Total time: under 10 minutes.

    Total cost: Rs 200 - just about $2.5 today

    • gruez7 days ago
      >I opened the thing, remove the RAM, and like a complete idiot, switched on the power without any RAM in the slot.

      >The laptop refused to start.

      >I took it to the Lenovo center [...]

      This makes no sense. Why didn't you just replace the RAM? I seriously doubt starting the laptop without RAM bricks the laptop.

      • spaceman_20206 days ago
        I forgot I had no RAM in the slot and switched the laptop back on

        Why it refused to start after that is something that's beyond my expertise

    • einpoklum7 days ago
      Wait, you mean the laptop refused to start after replacing the RAM? And - was the price quote you got for adding RAM, or for fixing the laptop so that it starts again (with the old RAM SODIMM)? I couldn't quite follow the example.
  • blackoil7 days ago
    It's simple, the labour cost for repair is lower than the replacement cost, we also have people scavenging for valuables in landfills. As/When India will become rich enough, this will become uneconomical. Long term solution is to force companies to build products with repairability in mind.
    • ryandrake7 days ago
      Companies should have to bear the full cost of cleaning up, repairing, or disposing the products they unleash upon the world. If I have to throw away my laptop because it broke, Lenovo should pay the cost of disposing (or repairing) it and bringing the environment back to the condition it was in before the product existed. When my car dies, Toyota should have to tow it away, part it out and reuse what it can. We've somehow normalized the idea that companies can just externalize these real disposal costs onto the public and environment.
      • pjc507 days ago
        > Companies should have to bear the full cost of cleaning up, repairing, or disposing the products they unleash upon the world

        Boy have I got a WEEE for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Electrical_and_Electroni...

        More broadly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Dot_(symbol)

        (however, both of those schemes don't put everything back directly - which would be inefficient. They allow delegation by paying recyclers. This can result in "carbon offset" like shenanigans.)

      • nottorp7 days ago
        > If I have to throw away my laptop because it broke

        Actually you should be able to bring it to one of the multiple 3rd party repair shops of your choice, get it fixed and not have Lenovo involved at all, except maybe by selling you parts at a reasonable price.

        Incidentally you should also be able to modify the laptop as you want, or if you lack the skills, pay said 3rd party repair shops to do it for you.

        • jdietrich7 days ago
          >Actually you should be able to bring it to one of the multiple 3rd party repair shops of your choice, get it fixed and not have Lenovo involved at all, except maybe by selling you parts at a reasonable price.

          You already can, it's just often not economically viable in high-income countries. Lenovo have a very comprehensive parts service and provide useful service manuals.

          Ironically, Apple devices are the most widely repaired by third-party specialists despite Apple's strenuous efforts to make that difficult, because they're expensive and depreciate slowly.

          • nottorp7 days ago
            Yeah, it's wrong to name names, except maybe Apple for assholery. This should go for any brand.

            > You already can, it's just often not economically viable in high-income countries.

            But are we sure it's only because of high labor costs?

            • jdietrich7 days ago
              As someone who is adept at electronic repair, I am absolutely certain that it's overwhelmingly because of high labour costs. I fix my own stuff for the fun of it, but there's no way I'd do it for a living because there are just much better uses of those skills in the modern economy. Just look at the prices for old electronics on eBay or Facebook Marketplace - unless the item is very recent, repair doesn't offer good value to the owner or a viable margin for a recycler.

              People used to darn holes in their socks, but that's an eccentric hobby in a world where you can buy perfectly good socks for less than $1 a pair.

              It's still a factor in the developing world. Those awful scenes of e-waste being melted down for scrap in open pits are symptomatic of the fact that a lot of devices just aren't worth fixing or dismantling for spare parts, even at third-world labour rates.

              Manufacturing is heavily automated, which is the reason why you can buy a toaster or a clock radio for less than $10; without massive advances in robotics and AI, the only similarly automated end-of-life solution for those items involves a shredder and a furnace. Here in the EU, the manufacturer is responsible for bearing the end-of-life costs for electronic devices, but it doesn't really change the economics.

      • forgotoldacc7 days ago
        Making the company responsible for the entire lifetime of a product also makes them effectively own the product. Your idea sounds a lot like renting from the producer.
        • HappMacDonald7 days ago
          Said responsibility can remain the choice of the consumer: producer must accept repair/replacement if consumer brings it back to them, but consumer is not forced to bring it back to them if anything goes wrong. Consumer may also choose to self-repair, sell, etc. Perhaps consumer must bring it back to dispose of it though, as nobody benefits from hucking it directly into a landfill.

          The other difference between "renting" from the producer is that the producer isn't collecting any rent, only initial purchase.. and that producer cannot claim the item back whenever they please.

          • sadeshmukh7 days ago
            So renting, but with only the negative parts for the company
      • dghlsakjg6 days ago
        Most places in North America people will pay you to take your old dead car away. They strip the useful parts, and send the rest for metal recycling.

        Why does Toyota need to get involved if there is already a multi-billion dollar salvage industry doing what you already propose with no obligation?

        My last car I was paid ~$200 and that was low because I had them tow it from my home.

      • sidkshatriya7 days ago
        This is a fair and valid view of looking at things. Though the trick is to not get too heavy handed. At what point does regulation become too stifling ?

        The American way is to possibly put too few responsibilities on manufacturers. The European way seems to be to saddle them with just too many regulations -- possibly killing so much innovation.

        One way to approach this would be to put more responsibilities on large established companies and less on smaller companies. But then the problem is that larger companies will want to arbitrage this somehow by indirectly "owning" these smaller companies with less environmental responsibilities.

        This area is far more complex than we think it is.

        Also what do we do about totally new materials that are thought to be benign when introduced but then are proved to have harmful effects many years later. Does the company that introduced them now have huge open ended costs and now go bankrupt ?

        The solution is as always in the middle ground. Society as a whole bears some cost of cleanup (a kind of insurance policy for all companies) and companies bear some of costs.

        • magicalhippo7 days ago
          Here in Norway, electrical and electronic (EE) goods are taxed extra and that money goes to recycling and cleanup[1].

          Importers and producers are required to be a member of a approved company handling returns, like RENAS[2].

          Shops selling EE goods are required to accept returned EE goods from individuals of the type they sell. So if you sell fridges you have to take my old fridge and handle it in accordance with the rules.

          Seems to work better than nothing, though how well I don't know. As with all such regulations there's money to be made by skipping steps, and some do[3].

          [1]: https://www.miljodirektoratet.no/ansvarsomrader/avfall/Retur...

          [2]: https://renas.no/

          [3]: https://www.miljodirektoratet.no/publikasjoner/2022/februar/...

          • sidkshatriya7 days ago
            This is a good design. The company that manufactures the product does not need to be necessarily responsible for the cleanup. The cleanup is done by another company and the costs are added on customer checkout. But this is open to abuse as you mentioned -- some companies may take short cuts or the cleanup companies may become an oligopoly and charge unreasonable prices that add a lot of cost to the products.

            Also, what happens if you order a product online from another company in a different country ? Does Norway still get to add tax for cleanup on these imported goods ? I would guess that this would be a powerful incentive for customers to skirt these regulations for lower prices.

            • magicalhippo7 days ago
              > Does Norway still get to add tax for cleanup on these imported goods ?

              If you import as a private person AFAIK no. Consumers have very good consumer protection on goods bought from domestic shops, so there's a strong incentive to do that rather than import.

              Though all that Temu junk is another story...

              But companies importing EE goods have to report to the return company they're a member of, and pay them accordingly.

              Can't recall offhand if there's special "flag" on the import declaration or if they just go by HS code. And presumably they get audited on this.

              IIRC it used to be more directly linked to the import declaration but they streamlined it.

          • robocat7 days ago
            > there's money to be made by skipping steps, and some do

            You must be joking.

            "Fifteen major car manufacturers have been fined almost €600 million by the European Commission and the British government after Mercedes-Benz blew the whistle on a cartel that fixed car recycling costs and processes." https://www.dw.com/en/eu-and-uk-fine-carmakers-millions-over...

            • 7 days ago
              undefined
            • magicalhippo7 days ago
              > You must be joking.

              Sarcasm was indeed intended...

          • fakedang7 days ago
            > The American way is to possibly put too few responsibilities on manufacturers. The European way seems to be to saddle them with just too many regulations -- possibly killing so much innovation

            Well that's what the European way is lol. Tax and regulate instead of focusing on the crux of the problem, which is overproduction and planned obsolescence. Any solution that uses taxes and extra charges will simply pass the costs onto the consumer.

            I like the idea of putting the onus on companies to get rid of the product, but there should be a consumer onus too. Consumers should be discouraged from tossing everything to the landfill, and companies should be forced to collect the stuff they product after the lifecycle is complete. This might even drive the companies to revise their designs to use more recyclable materials.

            • sidkshatriya7 days ago
              A good way to penalize planned obsolescence would be to charge a decreasing penalty if the goods are recycled/disposed earlier. So if I return the fridge for recycling after a couple of years (bad fridge) then the company gets charged automatically 5% of the fridge cost. If I recycle after 10 years then the company gets charged zero (as an example).

              Maybe instead of a charge this could be a credit. If the recycling happens after a long time the company gets a bigger payback than if it happens before. The money is collected on checkout so the company can't claim bankruptcy or low profits to make the payment.

              • magicalhippo7 days ago
                > So if I return the fridge for recycling after a couple of years

                Here in Norway consumers enjoy a 5 year warranty on products that are meant to last, and 2 years on other non-consumables.

                So if my fridge dies due to a manufacturing flaw within 5 years, the store I purchased it on has to repair free of charge, replace it with an equal or better product, or give a full refund. If the product keeps breaking in the same way, the customer can demand a full refund.

                And it's up to the store to convincingly argue it's not a manufacturing flaw if they don't want to do that.

                This provides similar disincentive to import crappy goods.

                • fakedang6 days ago
                  Well there's the issue innit? You're not placing fault on the manufacturer of the shoddy goods, but on the stores, which I presume are the local distributors?

                  Sure, you're disincentivizing crappy goods, but then you'd also barr a strata of society who can only afford those crappy goods. While it's not as much of a problem in Norway I suppose, it is a problem in the majority of the world.

          • Ray206 days ago
            I don't think the Norway example is relevant. We are talking about a country that produces oil for more than a thousand dollars a month per person, including old people and babies. It is literally a country where EVERY person is a millionaire from oil money alone. So they can set the most failed policies and make them work.
        • more-nitor7 days ago
          but ryandrake's comment might be the solution to what trump/republicans/rust-belt wants:

          1. employment-rate for Americans. 2. bringing back industrial capacity in US.

          If large companies are forced to recycle/repair INSIDE USA, that ultimately means employment for Americans, and bringing back industrial capacity back to US.

          (which could mean forcing Chinese manufacturers settings up whole industrial complexes in US...)

          btw, this would be a much easier/lesser-side-effect measure than "tariff on everyone" situation

      • Cthulhu_7 days ago
        > Companies should have to bear the full cost of cleaning up, repairing, or disposing the products they unleash upon the world.

        Where I live, you pay a "removal fee" when buying electronics or appliances for just that. If you're buying a new washing machine for example, the party delivering your device is obligated to take the old one with them.

        Of course, that's only part of it, your country also needs to have good waste processing and ideally not export it.

        • iszomer6 days ago
          I'd opt for an unconditional bootloader unlock on subsidized devices long EOL to save my electronics from obsolescence.
        • rishav_sharan7 days ago
          That's an interesting law. which country is that? I would love to know more about it.
          • dghlsakjg6 days ago
            I don't know where he is from, but we have something very similar here in BC, Canada. It covers mostly electronics, but we also have a large appliance program which is similar.

            Basically you just drop them off at your local recycling center, and they have a program that ensures they go to an audited recycler. There is a small fee when you buy electronics that pays for the program.

            https://www.recyclemy-assets.com/1738262511-epra_bc_obligate...

      • meta_ai_x7 days ago
        what about people who don't care for the products they own. Why should it be Toyota's responsibility for lazy people who don't even do basic maintenance?
        • lompad7 days ago
          Pretty much every product becomes trash at some point, maintenance only changes the timescale.

          Something somewhat similar is already law in germany and works rather well. There is no reason society should have to pay for expected costs for disposing a company's products - as this would only incentivize companies to care even less about the difficulty of recycling/disposal.

      • catmanjan7 days ago
        Companies never bear any costs, their customers do
      • daedrdev7 days ago
        There are plenty of products where recycling will never make sense, as it's literally worse for the environment to try and recycle it.

        And for disposal modern landfills in rich countries are very good at avoiding environmental problems.

        • vlz7 days ago
          > literally worse for the environment to try and recycle it

          For example? What products do you mean?

          • lproven7 days ago
            Basically anything plastic.

            Plastics recycling is a scam.

            Glass recycles well, if colours are kept separated.

            Aluminium and iron and most pure or semi-pure metals too.

            Far better to wash and reuse, of course, as was still the rule when I was a child, and in some of Scandinavia even 25Y ago.

      • perryizgr87 days ago
        > Companies should have to bear the full cost of cleaning up

        So the end users, got it.

    • goku127 days ago
      Please don't define everything in India in terms of poverty. It gives the impression that anything good in India happens only because of economic concerns. But that isn't entirely true. Let's not undermine the recognition of those who do it as a social responsibility. I'm personally acquainted with a rather successful engineer and businessman who does it because he believes in sustainability. His reworked Thinkpads are very popular among the tech community here - not because they're cheap, but because of his workmanship and configurability (it even comes with coreboot). And none of those customers are incapable of affording high-end laptops either - many are FOSS contributors when they're not at their full-time jobs.
    • throw8448497 days ago
      [flagged]
      • midnightclubbed7 days ago
        I know you are making a flippant and pointless comment, but I’m compelled to respond.

        Of all the laptops I’ve owned my 2020 MacBook Air is still my personal daily driver, my 2010 Mac mini still works fine for running my 3d printer, my 2014 Mac mini works great for crafting and my 2020 iPhone SE2 is still getting OS updates and is sending this message. Are they repairable? Not easily. Do they still work, absolutely. Having used a bunch of non apple laptops and devices at home and work I would say the Apple products last at least 2x as long before breaking or hitting enforced obsolescence.

        • vel0city7 days ago
          My 2020 Walmart-brand Motile M141 is still my main personal laptop. I have another Thinkpad T460s (2016) that still works fine. My wife still uses her 2019 Surface Pro. I have an ASRock Vision 3D (2010) in my closet running some SDRs. I've got a Supermicro X11SBA-LN4F (2016) in an old Shuttle SFF chassis (2009). And that's just the old stuff that still gets regular use.

          Aside from the Surface tablet they're all very repairable.

          I disagree that Mac things tend to last longer. There might be trash out there, but there's tons of stuff that's just fine and lasts a long time. You don't even need to always spend a lot on it; that Motile was like $300 for a 14" 1080p laptop.

        • octopoc6 days ago
          Yeah I'm in the same boat. I have a MacBook Pro 2009 that still works fine. That is 16 years old! I use it for web browsing occasionally, although I do have to update the certs manually.

          Only downsides are it has only 2GB of RAM and about 0.1 seconds of battery life.

          When I bought a new one, I made sure to get 32GB of RAM. That way I'll still be able to browse the web in twenty years, although I'm sure it'll be very slow because of the CPU.

        • randunel7 days ago
          I'm pretty sure you'll find individual Tesla owners who haven't yet had any issues, but their poor track record in terms of reliability and repairability remain.

          Stop encouraging companies who lock you out, stop renting products you should fully own!

          Locking things down is simply a hidden subscription in the shape of repairs and replacements. When you stop paying the subscription (stop repairing, stop upgrading), that's also approximately when the rental stops working (car, iphone, etc).

          I'm sure the percentage of broken to working devices is a carefully monitored R&D output, to maximise profit and retain customer trust from renters such as yourself.

        • throw8282887 days ago
          [flagged]
          • trinix9127 days ago
            > It may even have more than 8GB of ram

            I have two 2013 MacBooks - an Air with 8GB of RAM and a Pro with 16GB. I use them daily. Both work way smoother (with outdated software even) than my friends' few years old Windows 11 laptops. You'd be surprised how much you can get done on that 8GB when the OS isn't using half of it for the News Sidebar Webview and Windows Update/Telemetry services.

            Also, the keyboards are both fully functional -- that is, after 12 years of daily coding on them. I didn't buy extended warranty, and the laptops have survived some wild stuff. Where I do agree with you is that the newer ones seem to be of worse build quality. But overall? Pretty damn decent devices.

      • goku127 days ago
        I agree with the basic premise of your argument. The reason why I dislike certain products like Apple's is because of my professional background in electronics. But the way you presented it is definitely not the way to do it - flipping people off most certainly won't convince people to reconsider their ways. Instead, if people could see the economic and environmental damage cause by such consumerism in person, I'm sure that many would have a change of heart. It just doesn't hit you until you see for yourself what you're contributing to.
  • pjmlp7 days ago
    I remember up to the early 1990's we had repair shops all over Portugal, we would buy devices for life, and any kind of malfunction would be rescued at one of those repair shops, unless it was really a death sentence for the device.

    Now in a throw away society with planned obsolence devices, most of those shops are gone and the repair knowledge gone with them.

    Unless goverments fix the planned obsolence culture it is almost impossible to have the repair culture back.

    • Gigachad7 days ago
      Stuff still is repairable these days, it’s just most of us live in countries where labor is so expensive locally it makes more sense to just buy a new one than to pay someone to replace components on a circuit board.
      • vjk8007 days ago
        This is the reason.

        I've fixed old electronics myself sometimes and quite often it's doable and the spare parts usually cost approximately nothing. However, paying someone 50 euros for half an hour worth of work to fix a thirty euro Christmas decoration doesn't feel like a good deal. Maybe for 10 or even 15 euros it would be.

      • vel0city7 days ago
        Right? If the replacement is $500, and the repair guy is going to charge $100/hr in labor to diagnose the issue and repair it plus an unknown cost of replacement components, the risk of spending more on the repair is quite high.
    • zoobab7 days ago
      "The throw-away society is a human society strongly influenced by consumerism. The term describes a critical view of overconsumption and excessive production of short-lived or disposable items over durable goods that can be repaired."

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Throw-away_society

      • djrj477dhsnv7 days ago
        Isn't it also a natural consequence of rapidly improving technology.

        Even if a laptop were built to last 20 years, who would want one when a new one is an order of magnitude better?

        • consp7 days ago
          20 years is a bit much but a 10 year old laptop can still browse normal websites. Just not the javascript loaden addfactories.

          Doesn't mean you dump it after 2-3 years because a new fancy models comes along or the battery is not repairable because it's welded shut.

        • pjmlp7 days ago
          My Asus 1215B netbook from 2009 has served me well, until it died last year.

          There was nothing in 2025 laptops that I would have replaced it for, the use cases haven't changed from my 2009 requirements in computing on the go with a cheap laptop like device.

          Its replacement is now Samsung tablet with DEX capabilities, which I will likewise use until it dies.

          • zozbot2347 days ago
            Cheap netbook-like devices are widely available from China these days. They'll probably be cheap enough even accounting for the new tariffs. Or you can just buy an older 'ultrabook' laptop on the used market.
            • keyringlight7 days ago
              The 'cheap' angle is something I wonder about, especially for the coming year with tariffs, and especially when Microsoft is trying to tell a lot of people that they need to buy new PCs to get off win10 and I doubt a huge proportion will be able/willing to do the remaining bypasses or learn another OS. It seems like a perfect storm if you're trying to be frugal, so I assume 'frugal' is going to translate into a lot of people on unsupported systems.
            • pjmlp7 days ago
              They might be, but I rather favour the local businesses.
          • ciupicri7 days ago
            The 1366x768 resolution is small, there are websites which are hard to use at that resolution.
            • pjmlp7 days ago
              Not everything needs a retina screen to be usable.
              • NikkiA6 days ago
                My lenovo is 1400x900 and even the ubuntu installer is too tall for the screen.

                Developers have become incredibly lazy.

          • linacica7 days ago
            I would like to point out 20 years old it's was in 2005, which isn't very old imo,
            • wink7 days ago
              Some stuff is usable, but not fun.

              I have a Centrino laptop from 2004, and it's single core, with 1.5GB RAM and, of course, spinning rust.

              It works, but even playing a video on youtube can be taxing. I'm not arguing for "performance" tasks here, just sitting on the couch and surfing, and clicking random links.

              Then again my home server is a 2013 i5 that does everything it needs to do (except be super power efficient). So I'd say ~10-14 years is the sweet spot, but 20 is historic and mostly useless, sadly

        • srean7 days ago
          New laptops, phones also last a lot less (borked storage, borked motherboard), forcing us to buy another - which I think is the point.

          We have one refrigerator that's still going strong after 50 years whereas one of our 'newer' air-conditioners had to be replaced after 6 years.

          • catlikesshrimp7 days ago
            >> We have one refrigerator that's still going strong after 50 years

            In that particular case, it might not meet energy efficiency standards anymore.

            But I agree appliances breaking the day after the warranty expires is evil. Depending on the country, warranty may be meaningless, or close to that

        • eviks7 days ago
          > would want one when a new one is an order of magnitude better

          It's not, you're just ignoring two obvious points:

          1. a person with no laptop would prefer it

          2. a repairable laptop can also have its parts upgraded, so a 20 year laptop could have 1-year old parts

          • ponector7 days ago
            Cheap laptop I've bought in 2011 went through several upgrades: replaced ram doubling amount of GB. Replaced HDD with SSD, added HDD instead of DVD reader. Even replaced CPU to get more cores!

            Nowadays I can only replace m.2 stick to get more storage. Everything is soldered.

            • Ray207 days ago
              Today there are also plenty of cheap models that support memory expansion and have an additional slot for an SSD. The only exception is the ability to replace the processor, which is extremely rare. So you should rather ask yourself why you, as a consumer, chose a non-upgradable model.
            • pjmlp7 days ago
              Compared with 8 bit home computers appliance nature, that wouldn't be a big problem if we had repair shops all over the place, which could nonetheless take over replacing/upgrading soldered items.

              I do agree having back user upgradable ram, disk and GPUs on laptops would be much better alternatives.

        • griffzhowl7 days ago
          If it's two orders of magnitude cheaper then plenty of people could want one. It's handy to have a spare laptop or two around and with a lightweight linux on there old ones can be perfectly functional
        • fitsumbelay7 days ago
          > Even if a laptop were built to last 20 years, who would want one when a new one is an order of magnitude better?

          Someone living in poverty whose life may be markedly improved by having one?

          • Ray207 days ago
            Not really. Building a laptop that will last 20 years is several times more expensive than building one that will last 5-10 years. So they will be less accessible to poor people.
            • DrillShopper6 days ago
              They will be less accessible initially to poor people, but if the laptop actually does last 20 years then there will be a lot more on the used market therefore driving down the cost when someone buys a used one. That is the avenue most people who can't afford a new one will likely go.

              It makes it more expensive to be on the cutting edge and turning over your laptop once every couple of years, but it makes the used purchases cheaper.

              • Ray206 days ago
                >but it makes the used purchases cheaper.

                In fact, no, because they will also become less accessible to the less poor, and less poor will start using them longer and will also buy used ones.

    • soco7 days ago
      We still have here in Switzerland "repair cafes" run by volunteers, where mostly elderly bring their usually outdated devices to be repaired, while having a coffee and socializing. It works, as long it works...
      • BenjiWiebe7 days ago
        I think it would be fun to volunteer at a repair clinic, but there's none nearby and it probably wouldn't work well with a low population density rural area.
      • pjmlp7 days ago
        Starting to exist a bit around here in Germany as well.
    • jdietrich7 days ago
      In the early 1990s, Portugal had a GDP per capita of less than $10,000 per year. Portuguese people today just have much better things to do with their time than fix old toasters.

      I repair my own stuff for fun, but there's absolutely no way I could make a living from fixing other people's stuff. The phone repair business in my area is dominated by illegal immigrants, because fixing iPhones is only marginally more lucrative than delivering pizzas.

      • pjmlp7 days ago
        Go tell that to the folks earning minimum wage, splitting 800 euros for everything a family needs.

        Yeah Portugal is a great experience when visiting with tier 1 country salary.

    • carlosjobim7 days ago
      Your lord and savior the government cannot do anything about the fact that it's cheaper to manufacture new than to repair. Unless you want to de-industrialize, which of course is a popular ideology among Europeans.
      • pjmlp7 days ago
        We only need to throw into the arena the mighty power of executive orders, and great wall of Europe.
    • const_cast7 days ago
      [dead]
  • rockyj7 days ago
    I spent many a weekends at Nehru Place, even though it was a 90 mins drive and the parking ... oh the parking, well if you want to test your patience this is this is the place to go.

    But for a hardware / gaming junkie this was the place to be. Not to mention (pirated / photocopied) books. Almost any book / media you could dream of. The lanes are buzzing with scamsters / pirates and geniuses who can build / repair anything - phones, TVs, PCs, laptops, watches etc. At one time Nehru Place was the "IT" hub of New Delhi. The street food was not half bad as well. I was just happy watching the men at work in dinky shops fixing anything, built a few PCs there (a tradition which continues to this day).

    Some happy memories (but you have to be careful or you will need to walk back home without your wallet and your shirt).

    Edit: 2 movies to understand this culture (a bit more) -

    - Rocket Singh (salesman of the year)

    - Mickey Virus

    • farhanhubble7 days ago
      Nehru place was almost 100% scammers than real geniuses but definitely the place if you wanted a custom computing rig. The food was good enough, like you said but the prospect of having a 2GB RAM module made you salivate even more!

      The neighboring areas also had electronics importers that proved super helpful. You could find some of the most "lethal" tech with their help. I got myself some powerful FPGA kits that are normally not accessible outside defense, academia, and select licensed labs. I have great admiration for those folks who let me lay my hands over the most powerful technology of that time.

  • ravirajx77 days ago
    This reminded me of something that happened to a friend of mine not long ago. He’d just been laid off from a pretty good Salesforce Admin job and was already in a tight spot financially when his laptop’s motherboard fried after a voltage spike.

    Local shops were quoting ₹25,000–₹30,000 (roughly $300–$360), which he just couldn’t afford. Then a friend told him about Nehru Place. He sent the laptop there through someone he knew, and the repair only cost him around ₹5,000–₹10,000 ($60–$120). Way more reasonable.

    He was glad to get it fixed without spending a lot but it does make you wonder how reliable those reused parts are. Like, how long is it gonna hold up before something else goes wrong?

    • sokz7 days ago
      Delhi NCR in general looks like a pretty nice place to source tech in India. The Bangalore counterpart of Nehru Place, SP Road felt expensive and a bit less competent than I expected.
    • gyomu7 days ago
      I could also see unscrupulous businesses swapping out original parts in machines sent for repair for cheaper ones as a way to drive their costs down. The vast majority of customers wouldn’t be able to tell/prove what happened.
      • sokz7 days ago
        Spare parts are expensive in general in India. Add to the fact that there are unscrupulous repair centers, I am certain that the theft of genuine parts happen regularly.
    • LordGrignard7 days ago
      this is all the more important since 60$ in india is enough for a meal for four in an expensive restaurant in one of the better malls ( for e.g. in Mumbai ) ... and 25k to 30k is just ludicrous for a laptop. Even 5-10k will easily hurt his pockets but it depends on what the laptop's specs were and what it was worth
    • InfinityByTen7 days ago
      Heh, my brother got his Xbox original controller fixed for ₹200 which was just misbehaving due to old battery gunk. He could have afforded a new one, sure, but the charm of having the thing get another life, is a separate kick altogether :)
  • robin_reala7 days ago
    Not the same thing as this article, but I was impressed with the Chinese trend of “fixing” 2015-era MacBook Pros with broken screens by deleting the screen and installing a blanking plate, leaving the machine as a sort of C64/Amiga/ST/Acorn style keyboard-and-CPU single unit that could be plugged into an HDMI screen. https://ioshacker.com/news/people-in-china-are-using-macbook...
    • datadrivenangel7 days ago
      I did this with an old ASUS laptop. Just removed the whole screen after the hinges and LCD died. Worked fine!
  • h4ck_th3_pl4n3t7 days ago
    There was this famous guy, which sold custom old Thinkpads, but with newer mainboards and Intel 10th gen chips in it, with custom USB-C adapters and all.

    At some point he kind of disappeared and rumors appeared that he is now in mandatory military service, but will come back afterwards. Well, that was pre-COVID.

    He also knows a friend that backports coreboot to the new mainboards. No idea how they manage to do that in a 2 person project like this. So yeah, all of the laptops they sell run coreboot in it (including the Thunderbolt EC, which is insane amount of work to implement).

    Nonetheless the build quality was insanely good, and lots of folks were amazed by what they essentially bet blindly on when they ordered it. The X2100 would be my dream laptop, but I didn't manage to get one in time.

    [1] https://www.xyte.ch/shop/x2100-pricing/

    • accurrent7 days ago
      His last post was in 2022. Singapore's national service is 2 years, he'd be out by now. Seems like he probably ran into issues. Also he mentions his university: you can't start university till you've finished your military service.
    • lproven7 days ago
      • h4ck_th3_pl4n3t6 days ago
        Holy shit. X210 with an Intel 7 Ultra 165H in it? Damn. I'm sold.

        Anyone got one of these already or are they still in pre-production?

        • lproven6 days ago
          Right? I am extremely tempted to take some cash from my savings account.

          I spoke with a chap called Franck Deng and he seems to be taking orders right now.

  • DeathArrow7 days ago
    I grew up in a poor Eastern European country which is not as poor anymore.

    We repaired anything: worn out shoes, distressed socks and clothes. Even cooking pots were patched when they developed holes. Everything had very long lifetimes and those lifetimes were extended with periodic repairs.

    Cars were rare and using parts of low quality made the break often. People repaired their cars in front of their houses or apartment buildings. Or on the side of the road if it broke there. Everyone carried big toolkits in their trunks and and almost any car owner or driver knew how to fix the car. If a tire ran flat, they had the tools to fix it on spot.

    There were electronic repair shops everywhere. There were also other kind of repair shops.

    If someone looked in the trash cans at the time, most of it was vegetable waste resulting from people cooking their meals.

    It wasn't unusual to own a 30 years old car, a 20 years washing machine, a 30 year radio or a 15 year black and white TV, all being repaired lots of times.

    Some mass market goods, or most of them, were handed down to the next generation as priced possessions.

    Now, we repair next to nothing. We still repair cars, although many people sell their old car if it breaks and buy a new one.

    PC, TV, washing machines, fridges, furniture get replaced in a few years even if it's in perfectly good condition.

    Good got cheaper, although of uncertain quality and the wages got high so it's expensive to repair something even if you find a place to do it. If you buy a new bicycle and go to the repair shop two or three times it will cost you the price of a new one.

    I am not nostalgic about it, and I don't think people should stick with old junk. But I do believe we need an equilibrium, goods should be of higher quality, easier and cheaper to repair. I dislike being forced to throw something away because it can't be repaired, even if such a repair should be simple and cheap in theory.

    We pay less for good and we don't spend for the wages of repair technicians (almost none left) but since the goods are of low quality, have planned obsolescence built in and can't be repaired, we end up buying the same good two or three times so we spend more. While that might create jobs in China or other remote country, I as a consumer, care more about my budget and my quality of life.

  • evgandr6 days ago
    I'm living in Russia. Can't say that we lived wealthy any time, maybe near 10 years at the beginning of XXI century. So the culture of repairs and repair shops is widely adopted here.

    It is so widespread that even a special sort of frauds have been invented. First, a fake "repair shop" where you can lose money on paid "diagnosis" of broken parts or on extremely high cost of "repair". Which is just an installation of less broken parts or non-original and cheap parts ordered in China.

    Second is a fake repairman, who comes to fix someone's PC and charges unreasonably high price for simple things, like cleaning the case from the dust or changing the thermal paste. Or even installs viruses to convince the user of the "real problems" and takes the computer to the "repair shop" where the obviously working parts will be stolen (swapped to smth cheap chinese parts) and the user ofc gets the unreasonably large paycheck for these operations.

    Usually the technically illiterate people are the main target of such scammers.

    ---

    I'm still using the PC from 2013 year and the heavily modified Thinkpad X220. Yes, maybe some operations (mostly the modern Web-related operations) take more time than on the modern computer (mostly because of JavaScript). But editing text, programming, watching videos and listening to audio still works pretty well.

    Maybe, some day some time, the battery will be a problem. But it is detachable, so the main problem is the BMS (Battery Management System), which prevents me from just swapping the old battery cells for the new ones.

    But for now it has 2K screen (installed it because photo editing with 1366x768 isn't easy), new WiFi card with new WiFi revisions support and so on. Can say what this laptop have enormous repairability compared to the new laptops. One flaw — the CPU is soldered to the board, so I can't change it to something newer, like I can do with much older laptops.

  • Sateeshm7 days ago
    I used to do at-home computer troubleshooting as a part time job when was in college. Most of time it was just opening up the casing, dusting it and reattaching all the parts/reinstalling Windows that did the trick. 90% of time it was just RAM popping out a bit. But in rare cases, it was the components themselves. I used to rely of these shops in the city (Hyderabad, India) that fixed motherboards etc. really cheap and relatively quickly (less than a week most of the time). People that worked there weren't engineers or anything, more like tradesmen. It was amazing to see them work.
  • rajnathania day ago
    > “We literally make them out of scrap! We also take in second-hand laptops and e-waste from countries like Dubai and China, fix them up, and sell them at half the price of a new one,” he explains.

    This part is pretty surprising (maybe it's only a single source saying this so it could be non-truthful), because given China's electronics ecosystem that I would expect the repair ecosystem to be the most efficient and best there. But then maybe because the standard-of-living is higher in China that it would be cheaper to ship unrepaired electronics to India and the repair being done here, as repaired old electronics would have less value in the market in China.

  • zkmon7 days ago
    My Dell XPS-15 laptop's screen was falling off. To fix it, I drilled holes right though the border area of the screen and fitted 4 bolts so that the screen stays with the laptop. My colleagues were horrified to see large bolts at the back of the screen, but everything worked like a charm.
    • grishka7 days ago
      My classmate at the university had a laptop that first developed lines on the screen that he fixed by strategically cramming pieces of paper between the bezel and the LCD panel, and then eventually the hinges broke so he carried a book stand to prop up the lid. He did get a new laptop eventually iirc
      • noufalibrahim7 days ago
        I "fixed" broken hinge on a Dell laptop using some mseal. Sort of worked.
        • dangle16 days ago
          Can also add a binder clip after applying the adhesive for additional strength. The handles will fold around the screen kind of out of the way.
    • devsda7 days ago
      I would have made it needlessly complex by gluing a set of strong neodymium magnets on the exterior and a set of small flat magnets on the screen side to avoid the risks of drilling and protruding bolts.

      Of course gluing or taping are also viable options ?

  • nxobject7 days ago
    I’d love to learn some of the advanced rework skills they need to work on modern motherboards - especially BGA part replacement. And how to build a workshop on the cheap! I’m always in awe at the skills they need to learn that are nonexistent in the western world.
    • Saigonautica7 days ago
      Here are some good "value for money" tool brands I use (I live in Asia):

      1.Yihua combined hot air rework station + soldering station.

      2.Pro's Kit multimeter, tweezers, and wire snips.

      3.Uni-T hand-held oscillosope (quite optional).

      4.Mechanic brand solder paste. Get the one in a plastic syringe. The tubs dry out.

      5.TS100 soldering iron as a spare. Heats up so fast at 24V!

      I use them mainly for prototyping, but they are equally handy for repair. I don't re-ball BGA though. I've seen vendors do it with a machine that's mostly just a holder for the chip, and the hot air gun. Plus some templates and the solder balls.

      • NikkiA6 days ago
        > Yihua combined hot air rework station + soldering station.

        I personally wouldn't recommend this.

        I have one, it cost just short of £100. But I much prefer my T12 based 'KSGER' soldering station that was $30 from banggood and has far better features, plus I don't have to worry about the heating element dying (since with T12 the element is part of the tip).

        One day when I need hot air again, I'll probably think hard about finding a stand alone hot air station from banggood or aliexpress. I see they have some for $30.

        Since the hot-air has all the critical parts in the hand unit, and the heating and fan often die randomly, having a 2-in-1 is just too much liability.

        Btw, I recommend a butane soldering iron as a true 'backup' that doesn't even need a charged powertool battery.

      • nxobject7 days ago
        Thanks for the recommendations! I have a Yihua soldering station - such a solid budget option - I’ll shell out on a hot air rework station too, maybe one with a board preheater.
    • walterbell7 days ago
      Some repair shops have videos on YouTube. Search for a specific device or IC replacement. Some videos are oriented towards teaching vs. demo.
    • knowitnone6 days ago
      tons of videos on youtube on how to do this
  • ggm7 days ago
    If the thinkpad community gets behind this, there will be a market for upspecced thinkpads as long as supplies last.

    the reduce re-use re-cycle part here is nicely inserting itself into the recycle tail side.

    • noufalibrahim7 days ago
      Abhas Abhinav of Deeproot Linux runs "Mostly Harmless" which sells refurbished Thinkpads with binary blobs removed. https://mostlyharmless.io/computers/
      • HexDecOctBin7 days ago
        This is amazing, I didn't know we had people doing this kind of stuff in India. Are there any other similar services that you know of, that are doing open source/Linux-friendly hardware, etc.?
      • balancesoggy7 days ago
        Highly recommend. Bought a ThinkPad from Abhas and it runs like tank.
      • forinti7 days ago
        That is super cool.
    • nxobject7 days ago
      It's such a pity 51nb's upgraded ThinkPad project is no longer quite as active as it was. I think the small niche market for hacker-friendly laptops is far too diluted now, especially with qualitatively unique products like the MNT Reform.

      https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/1dh04ud/how_do_ge...

  • aamederen7 days ago
    Even though the aim here is different, sustainability through repair and reuse is uplifting. It's also a reminder that 10-year-old computers can do a lot and most of us may not need the latest shiny laptops.
    • chrismorgan7 days ago
      It’s also good to upgrade certain components.

      Firstly, upgrade from HDD to SSD. For random access, these are commonly 100–500× as fast, and even for block I/O 10–30×, and that will concretely speed up startup by a large fraction of that ratio, quite apart from speeding up other things later.

      Once you get used to modern SSDs, as almost everyone on this site will be, I think you lose track of just how bad HDDs are, to run the OS from. My wife’s ten-year-old work laptop takes well over five minutes to boot up, log in, start a browser, load something like Gmail, and settle down so the disk is idle and it’s running as smoothly as it ever will; and sure, the aging i5-4300M CPU doesn’t help¹; but I suspect spending less than a thousand rupees replacing its HDD with even the cheapest and smallest SSD (acceptable capacity, in this case) might cut that to a minute, and spending a few thousand for a faster one would speed it up to below a minute.

      (One fun thing about SSDs is that, overall, bigger is faster. At some points in history, for some makes, it’s been almost as simple as “twice as large, twice as fast”. This is, of course, a gross simplification, but I think not too far off.)

      Secondly, if you have less than 8GB of RAM, get more. Beyond that it varies depending on what you’re using it for, but up to at least that point, it’s just an unconditional improvement.

      —⁂—

      ¹ PassMark lists single/multi scores for the Intel Core i5-4300M of around 1,700/3,000. Some units in recent generations from approximately the same segment: the Intel Core i5-1334U scoring 3,350/13,400, and the Intel Core Ultra 5 125H scoring 3,450/21,500. This basically means an absolute minimum of 2× speedup on any workload, and for most it’s more like 3–4×. There’s a lot of difference in ten years of CPU.

    • pjmlp7 days ago
      An Amiga or PC running Windows 3.x would be quite capable to handle the word processing and spreadsheet related activities I do at home, and from the Amiga side I dare say I would still enjoy more many of those games than the 80 € AAA graphics pumped games that come out nowadays with their 60 h gameplay and 120 GB disk space.
  • Brajeshwar7 days ago
    I have a friend who runs a devices (mostly Laptops and Phones) rental business. Repairs are a key component in their business model. They have a well-established setup powered by processes automated by technology. He is a programmer, who bootstrapped his business into a successful enterprise today.

    If you are in India (or more specifically Bangalore), check out his team https://spurge.rentals

    I remember advising him to protect his domains with a .com while using an interesting but .com domain.

  • anshumankmr7 days ago
    I had an HP laptop bought in 2016, that worked like a charm and worked perfectly till 2023, when I upgraded to Windows 11, which wasn't supported on it. But in Delhi's Nehru Place, I got the damn thing repaired several times for several times, including battery repairs, a broken keyboard amongst other things, that extended its life quite well. In fact, I was open to using it for more years, though the HDD kind of sucked compared to the SSD.
  • bubblethink7 days ago
    This is largely a result of tariffs/duties that India imposes on everything. A typical $800 laptop is going to cost $1200-$1500 in India. Combined with the purchasing power parity, a good laptop is out of reach for most people. The repair culture works entirely due to artificial scarcity. Nostalgia for repairs notwithstanding, it is a failure for the country that people can't afford a decent laptop in 2025.
    • InfinityByTen7 days ago
      Food for thought: if a failure (of sorts) can make the successful rethink their ways of being, is that success missing the point, maybe?

      A lot of ways of life in India are sustainable. In fact going the consumerist ways of West is a step in the opposite direction, given what all problems that has created for the planet. I think the motive of the piece is not the nostalgia of repairing, but how living with constraints births sustainability and how we all can learn from it (including India) and in fact foster it in a positive way :)

      • gruez7 days ago
        >A lot of ways of life in India are sustainable. In fact going the consumerist ways of West is a step in the opposite direction, given what all problems that has created for the planet. I think the motive of the piece is not the nostalgia of repairing, but how living with constraints births sustainability and how we all can learn from it (including India) and in fact foster it in a positive way :)

        Isn't this the degrowth ideology expressed in a slightly obfuscated way? Being poor is more "sustainable", because you don't have as much resources to consume.

        • InfinityByTen7 days ago
          I didn't know there was a term to it. I wouldn't think of my stance currently as advocating of purposeful scarcity in an anticipation of better distribution. Instead I do consider it critical to "take a step back" and "evaluate the problem statement at hand". Is the end goal more consumption or better living?
          • gruez7 days ago
            >Instead I do consider it critical to "take a step back" and "evaluate the problem statement at hand". Is the end goal more consumption or better living?

            Except the context of this thread is talking about tariffs on laptops, not random trinkets from aliexpress. If someone is willing to part ways with $1000+ to get a laptop/phone, I think that's a pretty good sign the goal is "better living".

          • bubblethink7 days ago
            The end goal is progress and prosperity. Semiconductors are one of the few areas where there is rapid progress. Depriving your large working age population of the tools they need to improve their lives is counterproductive. The problem statement at hand is that you have a poor country plagued by graft and bureaucracy with the only sliver of hope being technology that can create upward mobility for your billion+ people.
            • InfinityByTen6 days ago
              > poor country plagued by graft and bureaucracy

              Tells me how little you know about the country. And that's okay. There are several "rich" countries that are also plagued by graft and bureaucracy. And no, they aren't as happy as Economist indices would tell you.

              • jjude6 days ago
                There are two parts in this comment - poor country ; plagued by graft & bureaucracy

                Latest Indus valley report[1] states that about 1Bn people (India3) are in economic condition equal to sub-saharan countries condition. In that sense large part of the country is still poor.

                In response to minister Piyush Goel's rant in the latest startup event, a startup founder posted this on reddit which details how the country is plagued by graft & bureaucracy [2] . This is just one rant. Twitter is flooded with actual experience of many.

                [1]: https://blume.vc/reports/indus-valley-annual-report-2024 [2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/StartUpIndia/comments/1js2y1s/piyus...

  • MaxGripe7 days ago
    It seems to me that one (of many) factors contributing to the fact that electronics are no longer repaired as often in Western countries is the wealth of these countries and the relatively low cost of electronics. If an hour of a technician's labor costs X, and a particular piece of equipment can be bought for, say, 3X, it doesn't make much sense for most people to repair it.
  • nirui7 days ago
    > “...For instance, we salvage parts from old laptop motherboards, such as capacitors, mouse pads, transistors, diodes, and certain ICs and use them in the newly refurbished ones,” says Prasad.

    This highlights the problem of parts availability, especially for older laptops (10 years old or even older). Since no one, the original manufacturer as well as the "dup(licat)ors", is going to make parts for laptops that old.

    During my own attempt to revive my old laptops, I had to buy three different keyboards, each costs around $8, from 2 different recycling shop, to "Frankenstein" a working and fairly new-looking one. And then the screen bezel and palm rest is another struggle. One total revival ended up costed me around $50 and 2 weeks, and give up on another one.

    I imagine in order for laptop/electronic repairing to work reliably, manufactures needs to create standardized parts, like what happened to desktop PCs. But that hasn't happened since ...ever?

    • pmontra7 days ago
      I remember that my old HP nc8430 from 2006 cost only 20 Euro some 10 years later. I could have bought a couple of them for spares if I planned to keep it running. The problem was that the GPU run out of software support circa 2012 and I had to pin the Linux kernel to a 3.1x version. An open source driver apparently made it into the kernel many years later but I never checked if it actually works. I bought a new laptop in 2014 which is a kind of Frankenstein on its own nowadays. I replaced the screen (a defective hinge under warranty), the RAM (maxed it out at 32 GB), the HDD with a 2 TB SSD, the DVD burner with another SSD, the keyboard many times as it wears out and maybe that's it.
    • knowitnone6 days ago
      It is somewhat standard. CPU, memory, drives, LCD. The only thing not standard is the motherboard. With 3d printing, you can print your own base to contain the motherboard, plug all those parts back in, screw on the LCD. Framework Computer is doing repairable laptops
  • penguin_booze7 days ago
    The repair culture exists because there's a market for it. People's disposable income--or lack thereof--forces them to make do with less shiny, older, products. As society gets richer, this repair culture, too, will fade and go extinct. "When I can easily afford, why should I settle?", the thinking will go.

    What I'd like to see is for society to embrace repair culture because that feels the right thing to do. A culture where it should feel immoral to chuck something out when there's still life left on the product. A culture where repairing makes economic sense--i.e., the cost of repair doesn't surpass that of a new, comparable, product by a wide margin.

    When deprecation is the norm and fashion, when companies are incentivized to "innovate" (read: planned obsolescence) and flood the market with cheap products, there won't be a repair culture.

  • dartharva7 days ago
    India is a classic cyberpunk dystopia. High tech penetration, extreme income inequality, prevalent hacker undergrounds (as shown in the article) and horrible quality of life.
  • DeathArrow7 days ago
    I remember a time when I bought an used laptop and was able to upgrade the CPU, RAM and hard drive.

    While I might buy now a laptop such as a MacBook without being able to replace major components, I will never buy a desktop such as a Mac Studio and accept the same shortcomings. And it's not only that I want to tinker with hardware, but buying parts and assembling the desktop myself has a much better price/performance ratio than buying of the shelf parts. Being able to upgrade is a bonus and that allows me to have cheaper upgrades than selling it and buying another one.

    How much more would Apple tax me for a Mac with the equivalent performance of i9 14900K, Nvidia 4090, 128 GB RAM and 8 GB SSD I assembled in a few hours.

    If I were much richer so the few hours spent on assembling the thing were more valuable than the price difference, I might have thought differently.

  • danielktdoranie7 days ago
    One of the events in my early life that got me interested in computers was a friend from middle school who lived near a Radio Shack and a neighbourhood computer store. He dumpster dived and got every computer he owned that way. He had a couple of Macintosh computers, this was like 1992, with cracked plastics. I enjoyed just sitting there and watching him tinker. His entire bedroom was filled with stuff he liberated from dumpster diving.
  • boricj7 days ago
    Somewhat related, Gamers Nexus made a video about motherboards made from salvaged parts in Shenzhen a while ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNje63vx73s
  • zkmon7 days ago
    I grew up in a village, where literally nothing goes waste. Eevrything is recycled. You can't think of anything that is junk. Animal poop and rotten bio-waste makes a great fertilizer for crops. Metal waste is melt by blacksmith, Wood in any form or shape is highly reusable. Plastics are almost absent, but they are sold in exchange for onions etc. Fabric is extremely reused. After reusing multiple time, things end up in a dump at the corner of own premises, which degrades and becomes fertilizer, in time for next crop.
  • lou13067 days ago
    I literally just bought a 2nd hand laptop, made by $huge_tech_conglomerate_from_pacific_northwest, with an 11-th gen i7, for less than EUR 250. The reason it was so cheap? It has a defective charging port so it only charges via USB-C. So it's not even "dead" dead.

    This is mind-boggling, the CPU alone almost basically makes the full price. In what world is this an efficient allocation of resources?

    • fn-mote7 days ago
      > This is mind-boggling, the CPU alone almost basically makes the full price. In what world is this an efficient allocation of resources?

      The world in which diagnosis (plus risk of incorrect diagnosis) is done at $200/hour. Obviously a corporate sale, where they cannot be bothered to check it out because that's not their core business.

  • preezer7 days ago
    I just love it, when people repair old stuff and the things are running again for another time. I love to repair things myself, it's just a very good feeling, if you managed to repair a device. Don't ask how often it would be cheaper to buy a new device, but the feeling is priceless.
  • srameshc7 days ago
    I bought a 2016 for someone for about $150 and it was probably refurbished at such shop few months back. It had 16GB RAM and i7 processor enough to get going with design work with a nice external laptop. I wasn't sure if it will last but took a bet and it works perfectly.
  • fifticon7 days ago
    Part of the appeal of refurbished computers is that currently, fresh new laptops and tablets have reached a horrible minimum-quality. I have chewed myself and our household through a possibly obscene number of laptops, tablets and smartphones over the last 15 years or so. One of the villains in this story is Asus.

    An ugly pattern emerges. In my country, there is mandatory 2year warranty on bought electronics - if it breaks before 24 months, the retailer owes you a working specimen. Well, what do you know.. I see a pattern of a lot of these items breaking before 3 years have passed. It is almost as if some hierarchy of managers have dictated "can you make this thing last for 25 months, but no further than that?"

    - 1 the non-replacable battery will die, leaving the device a brick.

    - 2 the power management IC will die, so the system refuses to light up or receive electrical current.

    - 3 often, when (2) happens, the motherboard will be toasted as a by-product, leaving you to pay 600 DKK to have the retailer inform you "we have looked at your device, unfortunately the motherboard died, so repairing it will cost you same price as brand new. Thank you for the 600 you paid to have us tell you that".

    Within the last year, I have had two separate Asus VivoBooks die on me, both after about 24 months of use - but critically, ">24", so no repair/warranty. One of them a DKK-10.000 purchase, the other a DKK-6.500 purchase. Neither of them have seen particular abuse, they were used by me, as "household pets" - so laptops that never left the couch.

    I have taken a long time to learn this, but my learned lesson is that I have stopped buying these "10k DKK for 24 months of laptop" devices.

    I am a pathological computer hoarder, and I have plenty of desktop PCs that are still alive and kicking after 10+ years (in which I may understandably have to replace PSUs).

    The scam/grift that suppliers like Asus are operating on comsumer devices, is that the PMIC is designed to fail, is soldered into the motherboard, and that they love whenever the failing PMIC kills the motherboard during its death throes.

  • userbinator7 days ago
  • intrasight7 days ago
    As a suburban kid in New York in the 70s, I also got my start in tech by taking apart and sometimes repairing old radios. In my case it wasn't a repair shop but an older sibling who encouraged my interest.
  • sharadov7 days ago
    India still has a thriving repair and refurbishment culture, which was born more out of financial necessity than environmental concerns.

    I know someone who exports automobile tires from the US to India to be retreaded.

  • solarpunk7 days ago
    Hell yeah! I wanna read more about this kind of stuff.
  • DrNosferatu7 days ago
    Want a real solution to electronic waste, with real international knock-on effects?

    The EU should mandate 10-year warranties for higher-end consumer electronics and durable goods.

    This could work on a sliding scale: less expensive items get shorter warranties (but never below the current 2-year minimum), while pricier products require longer coverage periods.

    Such legislation would:

    1. End the exploitation of workers in sweatshops producing deliberately short-lived products

    2. Discourage planned obsolescence and reduce manufacturing waste

    3. Significantly decrease the climate impact of consumer electronics

    4. Create genuine incentives for a Circular Economy where durable products like quality ThinkPads become standard rather than exceptions

    By requiring products to last, we'd not only protect consumers and the Environment, but also the vulnerable workers currently trapped and exploited in sweatshops designed to produce disposable goods.

  • FilosofumRex7 days ago
    In the US they're not called repair shops, they're chop shops - where all our stolen electronics wash up
  • anthk7 days ago
    That's the way, India. Helping the poor and avoiding waste it's the key point to improve the society.
  • schnable7 days ago
    I wonder if repair culture will expand in the US if prices on consumer elections rise with tariffs.
    • knowitnone6 days ago
      The US is unable to fix anything even if they are willing. Throw-away culture has consequences.
  • silexia6 days ago
    Please ask your local representatives to vote for the right to repair!
  • sunshine-o7 days ago
    Are there any good online resources for this beyond iFixit?
  • tommica7 days ago
    Honestly cool, though it really sucks that they don't have any safety from all those harmful chemicals.
    • nyanpasu647 days ago
      What's the chemical exposure from laptop repair? The biggest thing that comes to mind is flux smoke, which needs a fan or ideally a fume extractor to keep out of your face. Modern devices use lead-free solder, though I understand solder is mostly a concern for scrapping electronics for gold rather than repairing it (unless you don't wash your hands after soldering). I've gotten nasty effects from isopropyl/acetone vapors and super glue/epoxy too.

      EDIT: Are they salvaging components from e-waste, or diving in dumpsters with non-computer waste as well?

      • tommica7 days ago
        Article did talk about lead
  • goldforever6 days ago
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