118 pointsby pabs314 hours ago4 comments
  • megamix10 hours ago
    I’d like someone to explain this to me as I find this interesting. I have tech background but the OSI model is not something I’ve interacted with directly.

    Some questions I come to think of

    1. Why ESP32 made it closed? 2. What does the MAC layer in the OSI model make it so important to either make this closed/open source ?

    From the article: "security auditability", possibility for features not supported, make research into Wi-Fi networks with lots of nodes more affordable.

    E.g. ESP32 is proprietary, but it doesn’t limit the connection to certain routers, but could it be made to be?

    • magnat8 hours ago
      1. They might have used IP cores with license that forbids disclosing any technical details, including firmware implementation.

      2. Manipulating RF registers could cause the device to operate outside of regulatory parameters, perhaps invalidating FCC certification for the whole device. By not disclosing how to use MAC directly, they can claim they did their best to prevent device from misbehaving.

      • lumaan hour ago
        Item 1 is certainly the case here. Espressif licensed most of their original IP from tensilica, and this is completely normal for building a commercial microcontroller. If you don't have the in-house skill to build a complete WiFi radio stack from the ground up, you simply license the IP core and roll it into your product.

        Nice work by the presenters here, it's a good idea and might help the community, but the current state is not the result of Espressif trying to be jerks.

      • xattt3 hours ago
        There’s many devices that can get uncapped (Yaesu handhelds for example) without losing FCC certification.
        • Eduard26 minutes ago
          "uncapped"?
    • IshKebab6 hours ago
      Just in case you didn't know, the OSI model is wrong. The world uses the "TCP/IP model" - there's no "presentation layer" for example.
      • 2 hours ago
        undefined
    • londons_explore3 hours ago
      A huge part of the cost of developing a WiFi chip is in the firmware. WiFi is a complex set of protocols, and is especially tricky to implement in a low ram, low compute, power constrained device.

      There is perhaps a 50/50 effort split between firmware and hardware design. Open source the firmware and suddenly an upstart competitor has only half the cost to market, and therefore could undercut you in price.

    • rubatuga8 hours ago
      OSI MAC =/= WIFI MAC + PHY
    • pvtmert9 hours ago
      i'm also not professional networking engineer but overall open core will allow;

      better interfacing and integration as a wifi chip on SBCs like raspberry pi, potentially allowing faster rates and lower latencies on SPI or I2c buses

      better security and possibly handling further standards than the espressif allows.

      for example, you may implement wpa3 or wpa4 (if it comes out at some point) without needing to wait for espressif to implement and release themselves. plus, they may never have the incentives to do so if a newer chip (esp64?) comes out...

  • iou11 hours ago
    Timely post with the vulnerability research this week? https://www.tarlogic.com/news/backdoor-esp32-chip-infect-ot-...
    • lumaan hour ago
      This outfit has changed the term "backdoor" to mean "any undocumented feature". The findings reported are absolutely not a backdoor in any conventional usage of the term. One would need to flash their own code to the micro to make use of these features, which is the normal operating mode for any micro device.

      This is nothing other than a security research team trying to get some attention by crying wolf.

    • dugite-code10 hours ago
      That was related to Bluetooth. Interesting undocumented low level commands but it's a bit of a stretch to call it a vulnerability IMHO.

      But having the whole stack open would just be better in general.

      • gibibit9 hours ago
        Correct. HN thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43301369

        Not a vulnerability in the way that Tarlogic makes it sound. Disingenuous and misleading article for sure.

        • nottorp3 hours ago
          A good bunch of "security" articles that make the news look more like scareware to me in the past years.
    • mystified501638 minutes ago
      This isn't a backdoor, it's just an undocumented debugger in the HCI stack. You still need a physical UART connection to the device AFAIK. The exact same type of connection you use to program and debug the device normally.
  • bastard_op9 hours ago
    I was watching the 38c3 talk about this a few months ago, and just laughed seeing the recent news. Guess they have a good reason to be paranoid, hmm.

    https://youtu.be/r8IqkUTGjlA

  • pabs313 hours ago
    A list of other open source firmware:

    https://wiki.debian.org/Firmware/Open