62 pointsby teamonkeya year ago2 comments
  • anovikova year ago
    Question must be, what's the point of uber large storage sites? Storage is essential, but where is the economy of scale of large sites, how are they more economic than small - say container-sized, a ~1 MWh - ones? Having smaller systems, closer to producer, must also save on transmission capacity, no? Not to mention, given the geopolitical situation, their safety.

    I'm also convinced that separating generation and storage is simply an awfully, comically bad idea: generation that needs storage - solar and wind - is DC, storage is also DC. Transmission is usually AC or at least goes through AC/DC conversion at some point.

    Why wasting a lot of additional energy to store it by doing an extra unneeded AC/DC conversion which happens if storage is separate from generation? Instead of storing DC energy as it is produced and discharging it - by converting to AC and feeding into the grid - as it is needed?

    • vikramkra year ago
      My uneducated guess would be shared power infrastructure, easier licensing and permitting for one site, one large safety/fire extinguishment system instead of many, etc. The article mentions only 2 transformers needed to link that entire station to the grid. Also the controls, managing power delivery from thousands of small batteries versus one centralized facility. And if that particular wind or solar project doesn't go well for some reason the battery isn't tied to it, it's stabilizing the overall grid. Not sure though it is a good question, probably some technical or regulatory docs that go into details somewhere, I'd imagine this would have a ton of bureaucracy before getting built
    • s1artibartfasta year ago
      I think your assumptions about transmission losses are wrong.

      Transmission losses are on the order of a couple percent. Most of these large sites are literally composed of 1-2 mwh containerized units side by side.

      • anovikova year ago
        Transmission losses are not high, but AC/DC conversion losses are significant. Whenever there's a chance to avoid an extra conversion it's inefficient to miss it.

        While as other commenter said, this is only pertinent to solar, not to wind.

        Speaking of saving on transmission capacity i didn't mean "limiting transmission losses" but "avoiding hitting the limit of transmission power lines because the power will travel a shorter distance between the producer and the battery".

    • a year ago
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    • whoiscrobertsa year ago
      This might be a small site by the time the planet is converted.
  • NullPrefixa year ago
    >The first phase, which just went live, has a capacity of 200MW. The second phase, scheduled for 2026, will add an additional 100MW, bringing the total capacity to 300MW/600MWh.

    Love the capacity transition from megawatts to megawatthours. This journalist definitely understands the topic

    • s1artibartfasta year ago
      This is the correct industry standard. Grid capacity is measured in MW.

      National grid operators measure power capacity in mw, not mwh, because their primary concern is dispatchable power.

      Battery storage is optionally stated as MW/MWh

      • phil21a year ago
        It’s industry standard due to historical reasons, not because a primary concern is not how much storage (how long a given source can provide the nameplate power for) there is. Until recently the nameplate on a power source could be generally expected to run at its rated capacity factor indefinitely.

        Battery storage has almost been exclusively used for ancillary services, where storage was almost irrelevant. Now that it’s starting to be expected to provide actually useful power to consumers it will slowly become the primary metric that matters.

        Usually power capacity is used in press releases to greenwash things and be purposefully misleading to a naive audience. Nice to see this finally starting to change.

        • s1artibartfasta year ago
          I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see it as a greenwashing conspiracy, and I especially don't see it as a journalistic error as the parent claimed.

          Just because someone doesn't know industry terms doesn't mean those terms are incorrect.

          Regarding your point about nameplate power, dispatchable sources have existed for almost a century using this convention.

          • phil21a year ago
            > Regarding your point about nameplate power, dispatchable sources have existed for almost a century using this convention.

            The only thing that came close to batteries would have been pumped storage hydro power. And rather small installations at that. These number in the dozens (at best) worldwide. They were irrelevant for public discourse on the topic, therefore nameplate capacity was a useful metric as it was the only material one that mattered.

            Mentioning nameplate capacity for a source that has single-digit hours of fuel (storage) available is misleading at best short of writing targeted at industry insiders. Storage was simply an irrelevant metric until very recently, and it's very easy to leave it out (or not understand it's a missing bit of critical information) if you don't know anything about the topic at hand.

            It's not a conspiracy and I never stated such. It's folks who have an agenda to push at worst, or much more likely folks who simply don't have a clue about what they are writing about and take press releases at their word without applying critical thinking.

            It would be like quoting flywheel storage at nameplate and not mentioning that the rated capacity is only useful for single digit minutes to a naive audience. Misleading at best, but certainly not a conspiracy. Factually correct but incomplete information is typically no better than misinformation. It hurts the cause in the end.

            I think battery storage is on the right track, but the past 5 years of journalism on the subject has left their audience with incomplete at best information on the topic. Adding 1GW of grid capacity in batteries is simply not the same as adding 1GW of natural gas, nuclear, or hydro power but most reading these articles would not come away with such an understanding. Having had casual chats with "laymen" on the topic the average person simply does not understand this level of nuance. You get to first attempt to explain the difference when someone tries to compare a battery source to a nuclear power plant. This is where my real-world frustration over journalism here stems from.

            fwiw I think the writer here did a good job! I also disagree that the interchanging of units was incorrect. It read factually correct to me as they quoted both as any competent writing on the subject should.

            I see this far more as an indictment of journalism (with a nod towards PR departments perhaps trying to greenwash) than anything remotely resembling a conspiracy.

    • Symbiotea year ago
      They're quoting directly from the press release, but I've no problem with that when it means the facts remain.

      https://www.zenobe.com/news-and-events/blackhillock-battery-...

      The company also recycles EV batteries for other uses, but presumably not in this case or I'm sure they would have mentioned it.

      • NullPrefixa year ago
        The phrase was not in quotes or prefixed with an arrow or anything
    • teamonkeya year ago
      Assuming you mean it sarcastically, in that you can’t convert MW to MWh, you’re misreading.

      > total capacity to 300MW/600MWh. This is equivalent to powering more than 3.1 million homes for two hours

      It can deliver 300MW for 2 hours = 600MWh total energy storage.