Qualcomm Claims New X85 Modem Creates 'Huge Delta' in Performance versus Apple(www.macrumors.com)
40 pointsby tosh4 days ago16 comments
  • isoprophlexa day ago
    Have we hit Peak AI yet, or can we go even harder on the ai-washing?

    > It's the first modem that has so much AI, it actually increases the range of performance of the modem [...]

    slaps roof of modem

    This bad boy can fit SO MUCH AI in it

    • jeroenhda day ago
      With how much AI hype the recent Apple CPUs got because you can run their NPU with half a terabyte of RAM, I don't think we'll be over it any time soon. If it works like blockchain and NFTs, we'll be reading about AI products for at least another four or five years.
      • homebrewera day ago
        Unlike blockchain and NFTs, this curse has some real (very niche and limited) uses, so I'm afraid it will last longer than 4-5 years.
        • Workaccount2a day ago
          And here's me a non-swe using this niche and limited tool to save thousands of dollars a month because I can finally tell a computer what to do without having to crash course python again.

          Bumpers might be useless for pro bowlers, but they allow people like me to forgo hiring a pro to knock over pins.

        • creataa day ago
          Niche and limited relative to the outlandish funding and attention they're getting, sure, but they're not that niche.
      • apetresca day ago
        I hate to break it to you, but you’ll be reading about AI products for the rest of your life.
      • LoganDarka day ago
        The new Mac Studio nearly made me lose my shit. I want one so bad. It's only just over a cool $14,000...
        • Mistletoea day ago
          Why do you want one? What would you do with it?
          • throw0101aa day ago
            > Why do you want one? What would you do with it?

            For the same reason why someone wants a car with 500 HP/PS (367kW).

          • ForTheKidza day ago
            Finally I'll be able to stretch my legs with emacs (aka "eight megabytes and constantly swapping")
          • alsetmusica day ago
            People can want crazy-fast hardware without having a specific need. I know I want this. Doesn’t mean I’m gonna buy it.
          • fzzzya day ago
            Run r1 671b at a q6 quant?
          • LoganDark21 hours ago
            LLMs. Also, leaving web browser tabs open. Also, playing games without having to close/unload either of those. Although probably 128GB would be more than plenty for all that, I still drool at the prospect of having more RAM than I know what to do with.
    • RicoElectricoa day ago
      Cognitive radio is a thing. I presume the modern modem does have some problems to solve for which we don't know the exact solution.

      A cursory research returned this: https://www.scribd.com/document/629742504/37817-h00

    • nashashmia day ago
      Maybe it uses AI to optimize for radio settings? Maybe we should all use AI including AI chips to optimize for c.
    • leosancheza day ago
      At work we use a website to give appreciation to fellow collegues.

      Even that website has AI...

    • wslha day ago
      At this pace, we will soon go to the grocery store and ask for 5 kg of AI, or insert it into our language as a punctuation mark.
  • kotaKata day ago
    Okay, but does my mobile device NEED to be able to pull 12Gbps speeds?

    I’ll take a solid reliable 20-50Mbps of LTE on a power-sipping SOC over Qualcomm trying to beat their chests with another space heater of a chip for network applications that just don’t exist yet.

    • Workaccount2a day ago
      The primary gain of 5G is the ability to have way more devices attached to a single tower at a time. This ultimately translates to higher data caps, and why telecos were so exuberant about it (but didn't actually explain it this way). They knew people's number 1 gripe was data caps.

      4G was fast too, but couldn't handle lots of concurrent connections, necessitating the need to artificially constrain demand (data caps).

    • jshearda day ago
      5G is already dangerously fast on cheaper plans, I've accidentally burned through my entire monthly data allowance by running a single speed test.
      • HPsquareda day ago
        It'd be interesting to see mobile data plans' monthly allowances trended over time expressed as "seconds at maximum download speed per month".
      • ohgra day ago
        Yeah did the last year. Accidentally left Lightroom mobile uploading RAW images over it and now it blew 50 gig in an hour.
    • zinekellera day ago
      Not necessarily, but if the improvements that lead to 12Gbps includes refinement over signal processing, such that certain previously-garbled signal are being successfully decoded now, this will allow for better real-life speeds and latency. Obviously, this will not equate to 12Gbps but serving a thousand people with guaranteed speeds of 12Mbps and practically receiving (assuming not everyone is downloading) 100Mbps with minimal latency and packet loss would be great improvements.

      This is also the thing with Wi-Fi, you would unlikely to get ~6Gbps unless you're the sole user, but the improvements allow for faster and lower-latency real-life speeds.

    • kseca day ago
      >Okay, but does my mobile device NEED to be able to pull 12Gbps speeds? I’ll take a solid reliable 20-50Mbps of LTE on a power-sipping SOC.

      What if Qualcomm told you 12Gbps 5G downloading 5MB uses less energy than 50Mbps LTE?

      Getting faster and more efficient 5G is how you can use lower energy per MB transferred. Except most of the time the faster connection the more content the internet wants to push to you.

      • daneel_wa day ago
        That would only be true if the total power envelope was same or lower, and that's not necessarily true. Just because your switch has a GbE port and you have a GbE NIC does not mean there's a full Gbit available for you at the remote end or even in your immediate network. The most common complaint from end-users moving up to 5G is that it's a "drainer" despite no change in personal usage pattern - and the "surprise" is that the Internet doesn't push content to you, you pull content from it. The scenarios where some application "intelligently" adapt to you (e.g. streaming bandwidth for video content) don't entirely equate to power savings on network activity the way they do for downloading a huge file on a fast versus a slow connection. This marketing material from Qualcomm, in the context of cell phones, is purely an inflationary numbers race.
        • kseca day ago
          > Just because your switch has a GbE port and you have a GbE NIC does not mean there's a full Gbit available for you at the remote end or even in your immediate network.

          I was comparing the cellular tech only. i.e not limited by the backbone. Most people compare it with the best iteration of LTE, full spectrum available while on the other than 5G is still on NSA, less spectrum, and RAN not even optimised.

      • acdhaa day ago
        This also assumes that you have enormous buffers. If the data isn’t available when you start, you’re not going to see the lower benefits of transmitting everything at the highest rate and then going into low-power mode. I suspect that most usage other than, say, backing up your photo library is bursty enough to push that into diminishing returns.
    • daneel_wa day ago
      It's almost like the smartphone camera "megapixel" race all over again...
  • croesa day ago
    > largely thanks to its AI-powered features.

    So it hallucinated bandwidth?

    • inkyotoa day ago
      It gets better than that: clients are guaranteed to receive a response even before they send a request.
  • GeekyBeara day ago
    Google's Pixel phones abandoned Qualcomm modems for Samsung modems several years ago, and it doesn't seem to have cost them market share.

    If Samsung and Google can both abandon Qualcomm modems without losing market share, I'm sure Apple can do the same.

  • userbinatora day ago
    Funny name, considering that Apple has used an Intel modem (with an x86 CPU core!) in its iPhones in the past: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17988756
    • kallebooa day ago
      Apple bought Intels cellular modem division, so their new modem is a derivative of the Intel ones... x86 may be back...
  • chmorgan_a day ago
    Glad we've got some competition in this space. Qualcomm was the only manufacturer with top tier performance for several years.

    I'm a bit skeptical of how much "AI" is going on here but given the number of parameters in RF systems its not a surprise that ML could be trained on them to reduce the necessity to perform things algorithmically and outperform what a human could describe and code.

  • crazygringoa day ago
    Serious question: what can AI actually do with modem operation?

    I'm struggling to see where in the signal processing chain you can inject any AI benefits, but I'm only familiar with the basic principles.

    Where can pattern recognition/classification help? Since I really doubt it's anything LLM-based...

    Or is this just pure marketing fluff?

  • grandinja day ago
    Does that matter? Most of the time you will be limited by the network tower and the number of people around you using phones. Energy efficiency is more important to most heavy mobile data users, I would guess
  • bfroga day ago
    Qualcomm can say whatever they want, it seems unlikely Apple goes back to the hassles of working with them.
    • wslha day ago
      Right, it seems like Apple is obsessively replacing the non-commodity hardware in their devices. It is embedded in the company’s vision.
      • inkyoto11 hours ago
        In the case of 5G modems, I, for one, welcome and fully support Apple's obsession with replacing the 5G modems with their own for two reasons: Qualcomm 5G modems are power-hungry and run hot to very hot. Ever feel that burning sensation from your smartphone tucked away in a pocket of your jeans? That is right, that is Qualcomm sending you invisible rays of love. A 4G MiFi device I used to have could easily run on a single battery charge for 8 hours, and sometimes it would still have some battery charge left. The battery in my current 5G MiFi device can barely sustain 4 hours of operation, and sometimes even less – because of the power hungry Qualcomm 5G modem.

        Every single 5G device (smartphones, tablets, and MiFi devices) I have owned came with a Qualcomm 5G modem, which has always had a detrimental impact on the battery life of the device, and especially so as the data transfers increase. Given the engineering and financial resources at Qualcomm's disposal, it is bewildering that they have not even attempted to address the power consumption of their flagship product that also happens to be a cash cow. It is regrettable that Ericsson is not in the business of making consumer-grade 5G modems/chipsets, focusing on the core network equipment exclusively.

        The downside of Apple eventually achieving the feature parity with Qualcomm in the future is, of course, that their 5G modem availability will be constrained to the Apple ecosystem in the embedded form unless they also decide to make their MiFi device, which is not very likely.

  • kseca day ago
    I think I will wait to see more real world C1 Data.
  • llm_nerda day ago
    This is way beyond the point of diminishing returns. There are some edge situations that people will cite, but for the vast, vast majority of users, none of the cellular data improvements over the past half decade have made an iota of difference.
  • LeoPantheraa day ago
    Is the iPhone 16e even out yet? Are they comparing against a product you can't (yet) buy?

    How do they know what the performance will be like?

    • Almondsetata day ago
      The iPhone 16e has been out for roughly 10 days for consumers, and even more for reviewers and publications. This information is a 1-second google search away
    • Philpaxa day ago
      Apple usually have iPhones available to purchase within two weeks of announcement or less; it's due to their famous logistics pipeline.
    • Flockstera day ago
      Yes, I can pick it up today in my Apple Store it says on the website.
  • tw1984a day ago
    qualcomm worked pretty hard to miss out on all emerging fields, now their modem business is being challenged again.

    I guess resting and vesting just can't keep going forever?

    • matwooda day ago
      Unfortunately it’s not a real challenge since Apple probably won’t sell their modems for other phones, and Apple will use their own modem even if it’s lacking in some way.
      • tw1984a day ago
        that is going to take a huge chunk of qualcomm's profit away.
        • matwooda day ago
          Sure, but will it have anything to do with the modem feature set? I guess there could be a second order competition effect where people buy iPhones for the C1 instead of a different phone with a qualcom modem.
    • daneel_wa day ago
      It didn't work out for Intel vis-à-vis AMD, at least. Maybe Qualcomm's "AI" modem can put a few hours in at their strategic initiatives department when it's not busy creating that huge payback delta against Apple.
  • a day ago
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  • mrweasela day ago
    If feels a little suspicious that Apple comes out with the C1, shows that it's fairly good, even if it's lacking in some areas, and then Qualcomm announces their new modem?

    Seems a little unnecessary. Apple isn't going to switch back to Qualcomm, nor are Android makers going to be able to get a C1 into their phones. It's not really a competition.

    • janderson215a day ago
      Sometimes big co’s have to play the market and do things for appearances. QCOM shareholders and potential shareholders are probably the ones who appreciate this news the most.

      Losing Apple as a customer is a very big deal for vendors.

  • dijita day ago
    They claimed this with the last generation of chips but upon delivery were underwhelming (per core, unless you were comparing apples to oranges with core counts).

    Claim: https://www.macrumors.com/2023/12/18/qualcomm-snapdragon-x-e...

    Benchmark: https://youtu.be/fl7pYRfRyfw?si=1npM7NuH0CVUGj2T

    Now thats a 14 core Quallcom CPU vs an 8 core apple one (counting performance cores)

    Compared to Intel the efficiency is amazing, but it is not touching the performance of the M-series, but it was claimed to be so: https://www.theverge.com/24191671/copilot-plus-pcs-laptops-q...

    • jeroenhda day ago
      Why would you need to only look at single core performance to compare apples to apples? Qualcomm can fit more cores in the same die for a lower cost (or is willing to charge less overhead, at least), providing a faster multicore CPU. Wirh everything from games to web browsers leveraging multiple cores these days, multi core performance is quite relevant.

      Their performance may come at a cost of efficiency but they're beating most of the M series chips when it comes to raw CPU performance. Legacy software running only on a single core will be slower, but I haven't had a CPU core run completely idle while another is on high load for years.

      Furthermore, this article is on modems, an area where Qualcomm rules and Apple has a lot to gain. I'm sure Apple will catch up eventually, but they're still catching up at this point and if Qualcomm has managed to apply the lessons they've learned from catching up with Apple in the CPU area, that may take longer now that Qualcomm has reason to be competitive again.

      • zeuska day ago
        Because most CPU bound tasks (especially in consumer space) are single thread limited.
        • threeseeda day ago
          But you have (a) background tasks, (b) core iOS libraries being all multi-threaded courtesy of libdispatch and (c) AI being more commonplace which often is inferred across CPU and GPU.

          Not to mention that Apple has been aggressively splitting up their operating systems into lots of independent processes.

          • acdhaa day ago
            Yes, but you hit diminishing returns pretty quickly there so it ends to coming back to Amdahl’s law. As the other work gets distributed and optimized, what users notice tends to be single core performance. This is quite noticeable on phones where people notice Android browsing performance being slower because that stands out the most – most people don’t talk about things which are fast enough, so you don’t get as much credit for all of the optimized multi core work as you get negatives for the slow single-threaded web experience which visibly runs faster elsewhere.
            • threeseed19 hours ago
              WebKit is multi-process on iOS i.e. GPU tasks happen in a seperate process.

              So again users will notice the benefits of multi-core performance.

              • acdha17 hours ago
                I’m aware, but that’s only partially true. Browser developers have been adding concurrency for years but the way the web is designed has inherently single-threaded parts and that’s why benchmarks track single core performance. Apple’s had a lead for over a decade because of this.
              • zeusk16 hours ago
                Sure webkit is multi-process but how many perf critical threads do you think there are for rendering the single page that user is viewing?
    • comexa day ago
      This is about modems, not general-purpose CPUs.
      • taorminaa day ago
        The history of overstating technological claims seems relevant.
        • acdhaa day ago
          Yes, especially with the huge gap between the underlying hardware’s maximum capabilities and what people actually get with shipping software. Qualcomm’s historic focus on hardware has left them losing ground on anything which isn’t a simple driver tweak.