79 pointsby seanobannon6 days ago10 comments
  • Jtsummers5 days ago
    I'm surprised no one else noticed that this is a submarine article for Anduril and called it out. "Sean's Substack" was created 2 days ago (at the time of writing this comment) and has just this one article, no history to establish credibility either.

    The main story is about Manna, an Irish company, but that doesn't help the US itself as they aren't made in the US. The article is advocating for a similar regulatory regime as Manna (and presumably others) have received in Ireland here in the US, and then name drops Anduril near the end.

    Anduril's current business is to become part of the military industrial complex, but if regulations are changed they could shift their production towards commercial projects and expand their business.

    • ecshafer5 days ago
      So? It might be a submarine article for Anduril, but their point still stands. The FAA regulations on Drones needs to be rewritten to allow innovation for both commercial and defense purposes.
      • moregrist5 days ago
        I tend to think that it’s not too much to ask a company to engage in transparent advocacy as opposed to astroturfing.
      • Braxton19805 days ago
        What evidence exists to show FAA regulations are hampering innovation?
      • Jtsummers5 days ago
        Do they need to be rewritten? And if they do, is a thought piece by someone with no prior connection or history in aviation the person to make the case for it?
  • maximusdrex6 days ago
    While I agree with the ultimate conclusion of the article, that FAA regulations need to be modernized for commercial use of sUAS systems, it completely fails to analyze any of the other relevant dynamics facing the American drone industry. There are a plethora of American companies building drones for commercial and/or defense purposes (I work at one) but this article reads like the author knows only about the most publicized one and another company they heard about on a podcast. The article would benefit from an understanding of the Probably the most major blocker for the authors dreams of swarms of millions of American military drones is the following: jet engines and rocket motors can be produced in the US profitably, the American economy just isn’t set up to build drones motors, props, etc. in an economically efficient manner. Because of this, the cost-optimized drones developed for the commercial sector will never be acceptable for the us military. Secondly, the author seems to think that self-organized systems are a brand new innovation and would trivially port to a battlefield environment. However, these techniques rely on 5G connectivity and gps, whereas military sUAS systems need GPS-denied autonomy and the ability to communicate in a heavily jammed environment.
  • palata6 days ago
    The problem I have with the idea of subsidising small drones as a proxy for defense is that they solve very different problems: Making a small quadcopter that flies is now entirely solved: you take an open source autopilot, put it on some open source autopilot board, and that's it.

    If you go further than that, successfully producing delivery drones means that they need to carry a payload safely to some destination, deliver the payload nicely (as in, smoothly leave a parcel on the ground), come back and be reusable. The drone flies by GPS, but doesn't really need a radio signal (ideally there is no operator, the drone just goes, delivers and comes back).

    Killer drones are "one-way". They are defined by a lifetime of like 25min, ending up violently in a place where the operators care about maximising damage. They fly in war zones. Nobody really cares if some percentage of the drones falls from the sky or doesn't explode upon contact. They need to fly in GPS-denied mode, and they probably need a radio for the operator to select the target when the times comes. This has to be a military-grade radio that works in the presence of jamming to some extent.

    Those are very different projects. Feels a bit like saying that subsidising personal cars is good for the tank business.

    • toss16 days ago
      >>Feels a bit like saying that subsidising personal cars is good for the tank business.

      Funny you should say that. The US had in 1938 a grand total of about 38 tanks. WWII started a few years later, and after converting prewar automobile factories to tank factories, the USA built more tanks than every other nation combined.

      Pretty much the same thing happened for airplanes, as mentioned in the article.

      US industrial production was literally the arsenal of democracy.

      It is a LOT easier to convert commercial manufacturing base to military purposes than to start from scratch. So, yes, subsidizing commercial production to stay in-country is definitely good for mil readiness (and ultimately, the tank business).

      • CrimsonCape6 days ago
        I have the impression from reading history books that the workforce at the time of World War 2 was uniquely specialized and widely available. There were many machinists that had special knowledge and experience of how to run their lathes, presses, etc. This workforce was involved in the assembly line of passenger cars, so you had expert machinists involved in producing passenger cars which made expertise widely available. Because of their knowledge, they could easily pivot to an armored vehicle (for example).

        In today's world the assembly line itself is derived from CAD, robot CNC machines, and the workforce is not specialized. The workforce consists of "assemblers" and machine operators, moreso than "machinists" or "machine designers"

        This difference between workforces is a potentially profound difference.

        • toss15 days ago
          Good points, although a nit that I'd characterize the workforce as more specialized today rather than less. Didn't the old-school machinists have more knowledge over the full range of production processes, vs a CAD drafter vs a Fanuc CNC operator, vs an assembler?

          That said, I'd still say having one capability today still makes a far shorter path to convert from Civ-to-Mil output. I run a carbon-fiber composites shop that does everything from design through materials, CAD, CAM, moldmaking, forming with multiple technologies, CNC machining, and assembly. It would be a straightforward task to setup for new Mil products (and not just because we already do some Mil work), especially compared to not having it at all.

      • nradov6 days ago
        Military vehicles had much more in common with their civilian counterparts in the WWII era. Technologies have almost entirely diverged since then. An M4 Sherman tank had a gasoline piston engine and steel armor. An M1 Abrams tank has a turbine engine, and uranium and ceramic composite armor. To convert a factory from one to the other you'll have to rip out almost everything and start over.
        • toss15 days ago
          Yes, mil tech has diverged, and much of modern manufacturing requires highly specialized tooling that requires long lead times to get into production.

          That is an excellent reason to subsidize maintaining convertible or dual-use tech in the civilian arena. e.g., make sure turbines are used in more civilian uses. Stockpile tech that is really civilian incompatible such as the depleted uranium armor.

          Turbines are a good example of how a civilian tech could have gone differently. In the 1960s several turbine-powered cars were in development for street use and a turbine race car qualified and lead most of the 1967 Indianapolis 500 race. But then the USAC effectively disqualified it [0], and civilian development stopped for other reasons. But it arguably might have continued had turbine power been allowed to race and dominate.

          Yet, turbines are used both for aircraft and for natural gas power, both stationary and portable, and there are many small turbines. So, of course, we would not go to an ICE engine builder but to the builders of aircraft and gas power plants. There are also manufacturers of small-scale turbines that might ramp up.

          On the other hand, we can also look at how modern warfare has changed over the last three years. multi-million dollar tanks are being reliably destroyed by $800 drones. And drone tech is highly fungible. Many common computer chips and boards can be used to control it, many common lightweight motors will work, and composites or lightweight metals can make the bodies. All of these technologies are highly configurable, so it would be a short lead time to make new factories to turn out pretty much whatever shape drone we wanted, whether it is flying, rolling, or swimming.

          [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STP-Paxton_Turbocar

          • nradov5 days ago
            There was never any possibility of turbine engines becoming widely used for civilian street autos. They are less fuel efficient and have slower throttle response compared to reciprocating internal combustion engines. This is inherent in the technology, not something that could have been fixed with further development.
    • cutemonster6 days ago
      Bomb and kamikaze drones based on civilian drones are already a reality though, Ukraine uses to defend itself. Don't know why you're talking as if that wasn't possible, when it's happening already.
      • palata6 days ago
        Hmm maybe I'm not being very clear, I didn't want to write a 20 pages essay :-). I was saying that I don't think it's a particularly efficient way to approach defense.

        My point was that Ukraine doesn't buy 2 millions civilian drones and use them as killer drones. Ukraine is actually producing killer drones.

        If you are good at producing civilian drones, it doesn't mean that you are good at producing killer drones because the specs are pretty different. If you subsidise heavily a civilian company making survey drones, for instance, and then try to attach a bomb to those and send them in a war zone, they won't do much today. In the end you will have subsidised work that went into making a drone that can make hundreds or thousands of flights during its lifetime, never fall from the sky, lands smoothly, doesn't make too much noise, follows drone regulations in civilian spaces, etc. But none of that work is useful for a killer drone (that has a lifetime of 25min in a war zone). On the other hand, your civilian drones will not have the ability to lock a target and crash into it, fly in GPS-denied environments and a jamming-resistant radio.

        • hkpack6 days ago
          Ukraine is absolutely buying all the civilian drones it can get, especially the larger ones with good optics.

          One of the previous defense minister was skeptical of their utility too and called them “wedding drones”, and now you can see very frequently in war footages mentions how they are using “wedding drones” in this or that reconnaissance or surveillance operation.

          You absolutely need tens of thousands of drones in the air all the time to support modern warfare.

          And drones are being hunted by other drones too, so they don’t last very long.

          “Millitary grade” digital communication and encryption is not that important as the scale itself.

          • umbra076 days ago
            Yes, but that is simply because they don't have a better choice.

            Given the choice between a $200 DJI and a $100 homebuilt "killer" drone, you would probably want 2x of the killer drones. However, if your bottleneck is your manufacturing capabilities instead of your money, then you might be forced to use the DJI drones instead of the custom killers.

            • hkpack6 days ago
              It is more complicated than that as the roles are very different and you need both. You just cannot substitute one for the other.

              DJIs with their high zoom ratios and quality stabilised cameras just allow for wide area monitoring which killer drones relies on.

              Video from surveillance drones are usually streamed to a teams of analytics far away from front lines for analysis of situation change. People analysing the video data is a significant chunk of the total personnel in this war.

              Without having that, killer drones are not effective, since they are very short-lived, have very poor cameras and power characteristics. It is very difficult to find enemy with self-made drones.

              So I argue that you can in fact have a civilian drone manufacturing which can be repurposed quickly into a cheap mass produced war-time surveillance drone with minimal effort.

              The same goes for software - both sides use civilian service for video streaming and communication which works better than anything "military grade".

              • palata6 days ago
                Hmm, I feel like you get back to "Ukraine needs everything it can get". Sure, but that's not my point.

                For your wide area monitoring, you don't want your radio to be jammed because it makes it useless. So if you think about building your equipment, you'd rather build jamming-resistant radios, right?

                > I argue that you can in fact have a civilian drone manufacturing which can be repurposed quickly

                It could potentially be repurposed relatively quickly if it was well designed. But what tells you it will be? Most software is not very well designed, and in the western drone industry it's particularly right, in my experience. If you subsidise a company to make military drones and they write bad software, you will still end up with a military drone ("the software is bad but it lasts 25min most of the time"). If you subsidise a company to make survey drones in the hope that their design will be good enough to be quickly ported to military needs...

                > both sides use civilian service for video streaming and communication which works better than anything "military grade".

                I highly doubt that. Civilian radios are easily jammed.

                • hkpack6 days ago
                  The reality is very different.

                  In practice, jamming of wide area is not a solved problem. It is easy to jam GPS because its signal is already weak, or a cell phone in a city, but it is very difficult to jam a drone in the sky which have a line-of sight to the antenna or a retranslation drone. Also all modern cheap drones have a way to switch frequencies if one gets jammed, and jamming all frequencies is also very very difficult.

                  You either need to have a very big powerful machinery - which is very easy to detect location of and send a HIMARS rocket. Or a huge number of smaller devices, which is impractical as you don't have power in trenches.

                  So in practice, drone jamming is only effective in the last 100-200 meters from the target (if it is a vehicle with power source) which doesn't really matters for surveillance drones as they do their job from the distance.

                  > Civilian radios are easily jammed.

                  In theory, in practice on the battlefield, when drones can switch frequencies on the go - very very difficult with the exception of the last hundred meters.

                  Because of this, modern killer drones now have a primitive "AI" to lock on the target on the last meters of approach.

                  • palata6 days ago
                    Thanks, that's interesting!
              • dani__german5 days ago
                tell me more about the video streaming and communication aspects of this. Just skype (haha), zoom, and text messaging/phone calls?
                • officeplant5 days ago
                  There's been images showing both Ukraine and Russia using Discord. IIRC including video streaming drone kills. Not sure if anyone is piloting over the streams.
        • cutemonster6 days ago
          Thanks for explaining!

          I think the article says that the factories are important too, and can be altered to produce these different drones much faster than if starting from zero.

          And having one's own already verified and certified backdoor free electronics, rather than buying from what might turn out to be the adversary

      • potato37328426 days ago
        They're not "based on civilian drones" other than using some basic software and electronics and design principals. Everything else is built around cheap and short lifetime.
    • mytailorisrich5 days ago
      For offensive drones in hot military situations I think one key area of study is swarming. To inflict real damage and evade defenses you need to throw a swarm of drones at the objective. If you that to be robust against jamming you may also want a level of autonomy.
    • klooney5 days ago
      > Feels a bit like saying that subsidising personal cars is good for the tank business.

      I mean, in WWII, a lot of car manufacturers made tanks instead. Buick made the Hellcat, Chrysler, Ford and a variety of train manufacturers made the Sherman, and on and on. The skills are much more transferable than a lot of other fields.

      In fact, this is explicitly why the US and others subsidize their passenger car industries.

      This probably wouldn't work as well today, because most modern automakers just do engine design, assembly, and pick some parts out of a Bosch catalog, but I bet the more ambitious, vertically integrated automakers like BYD or Tesla could do an OK job in a pinch.

  • BurningFrog6 days ago
    I saw someone claiming drones are the biggest military invention since the stirrup!

    The US would do well to start catching up on that technology.

    BTW, I assume that when/if the Ukraine war ends, the Ukrainian drone industry will be the best in the world.

    • floatrock6 days ago
      The aircraft carrier made the battleship obsolete, and I think most war strategists acknowledge that drones and cruise missiles have made the aircraft carrier obsolete in a true hot war. We haven't seen one of those sink yet, but well, Russia controls the historically strategic port of Sevastopol, and yet what's left of their Black Sea fleet has retreated to ports back behind Stormshadow range. Taiwan plans are definitely looking at cruise-missile-vs-airplane-range ratios.

      So yes, drones and other unmanned munitions are game changers. I just wish the argument wasn't "increase civilian drones so we have a rich and vibrant military industrial complex ready for when we get to destroy things."

      Then again, some of what the article is kinda saying is "if there's civilian applications for this, you don't need to have a military industrial complex (until you're forced to on a wartime footing, at which point you're not starting from zero)." Which is basically the strategic-importance argument that is keeping Boeing afloat these days...

      • pjc506 days ago
        Russia has exactly one aircraft carrier that nearly sank of its own accord. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_aircraft_carrier_Admir...

        Taiwan should be building a lot of drones if they intend to fight. However, that's not the only possibility; recent shifts in US posture may encourage the "voluntary reintegration" local political faction, including the possibility of handing over TSMC intact.

        • floatrock6 days ago
          It's not Russia's aircraft carriers I'm concerned about.

          Russia's experience with drones vs. her guided missile cruisers has more than enough there to translate to more capable aircraft carriers.

          • pjc506 days ago
            If I remember rightly, one of the successful attacks was a floating "drone" made of a small boat packed with explosives. Kind of a hybrid between the torpedo and the fireship, and quite hard to defend against at night.

            China has (checks wikipedia) three operational carriers, one very modern Fujian, the obsolete former training ship Liaoning, and Shandong, which appears to be halfway between the two, the first locally built carrier. During WW2, the US fielded ... 111 aircraft carriers. Just a whole different order of magnitude.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_aircraft_carrier_Liaon... (interesting and varied history!)

            • tw046 days ago
              > During WW2, the US fielded ... 111 aircraft carriers. Just a whole different order of magnitude.

              And would have absolutely no way to reach that scale again. Or the equivalent in drone production, which is why it’s absolutely preposterous to take a hostile attitude towards our closest neighbors and trade and potentially put our geographical advantages at risk.

              • jdeibele6 days ago
                One of things that's a concern is the consolidation of industry into fewer and fewer bigger and bigger plants. Not only does that mean a bottleneck in one place is far worse, it also means that there's not the depth of experience available many places. There's a handful of production engineers rather than dozens. And there's not the same number of plants that can be converted from sewing machines to rifles or automobiles to tanks.

                I was reading something that said militarily, the US is now in the same position that Japan was prior to WWII because we've outsourced so much of our production.

            • DeathArrow5 days ago
              China doesn't need lots of aircraft carriers unless the want to invade US.

              What they need and they have is enough weapons to destroy any US aircraft carrier approaching their coast.

              Naval power doesn't mean just aircraft carriers and China has 100x shipbuilding capacity US has.

              • Neonlicht5 days ago
                If China wants Taiwan back the only thing they need to do is make sure the US Navy and cargo ships can't reach the island.
      • JumpCrisscross6 days ago
        > drones and cruise missiles have made the aircraft carrier obsolete in a true hot war

        The notion of unsinkable carriers is mostly fiction. In WWII I think almost every CV America entered the war with (but 3, Enterprise, Saratoga and Ranger) was sunk by ‘44.

    • dfadsadsf6 days ago
      Unlikely. Ukraine does not have scale, manufacturing base and talent for that - right now it's mostly assembling drones from Chinese parts with very little innovation on top of that. People talked about AI swarms but very little of that materialized at the front line. Larger drones require satellite connections, advanced materials, etc - Ukraine does not have that either. I expect Ukrainian expertise in war drones will stagnate and become obsolete very quickly after the war.
    • clvx6 days ago
      I’m just baffled how Russia switched the frontline using fiber drones. It’s genius and worrisome at the same time.
      • tim3336 days ago
        Ukraine has them too. They both buy the fiber tech from China.
        • olyjohn6 days ago
          Rule of Acquisition #34. War is good for business.
      • euroderf5 days ago
        And then you trace back the fibers, glistening in the sunlight... your operators had better be mobile.
      • klipt6 days ago
        Amazing that disposable drones can get fiber internet while residents of Silicon Valley can't!
    • lawn6 days ago
      > BTW, I assume that when/if the Ukraine war ends, the Ukrainian drone industry will be the best in the world.

      I'd say it already is.

      • palata6 days ago
        Don't forget China. China is way ahead everybody else when it comes to consumer drones and producing them at scale. Like way ahead.
        • lawn6 days ago
          They may have the manufacturing muscles but Ukraine has been able to develop and test their drones in live combat for years. There's nothing that propels technology forward as much as deadly necessity.
          • palata6 days ago
            > They may have the manufacturing muscles

            This sounds like it's dramatically under-estimating the Chinese engineers. If you take a drone today, like a DJI Mavic. Pretty much every single component of that drone is better than what we can do - at scale - in the West. It's not like we sent them blueprints and they mass produced the drones. Their technology is first class, arguably better than the West in the field of robotics.

          • s1artibartfast6 days ago
            Maybe shocked if China and even Russia didn't have the specs and designs for every Ukrainian drone.

            Drone hardware in software are mature. Adoption is more matter of observing tactics and human interaction

    • runsWphotons6 days ago
      I will take the other side of that bet.
    • pjc506 days ago
      [flagged]
  • tim3336 days ago
    >But look, Ukraine are producing two-and-a-half drones a day now.

    That seems way off. See the recent euromaidanpress headline:

    >Defense News: Ukraine plans 15-km unmanned “kill zone” along Russian front as drone production hits 4,000+ daily https://euromaidanpress.com/2025/03/02/defense-news-ukraine-...

    Which is kind of interesting strategically. I was thinking Ukraine can't really afford to keep losing large numbers of soldiers and will probably try switching to drones to hold the Russians back. It's probably a technology that favours defenders over attackers as the defenders can work from hidden bunkers but the attackers have to move above ground.

    • throwup2386 days ago
      It’s not being talked about much outside of military analyst circles but those small drones have significantly changed the logistics of modern warfare possibly more than anything in the 21st century. Before, with cover and conceal warfare, armies had to deliver massive firepower to even have a chance of hitting an enemy unit from a another dynamic military, with ever more expensive precision munitions to make up for that fact. Now a small drone can drop a grenade and do the same amount of damage at similar distances between combatants. It makes a huge difference when a combat engineer slash drone pilot can carry 20kg of drones and small explosives into the battlefield as part of a small team instead of manning an entire artillery unit.
      • tim3336 days ago
        The larger drones are having an effect too. Ukraine as of mid feb had taken out about 10% or Russia's refining capacity and it's ongoing - the Ufa oil refinery was hit a day or so ago which is one of the largest in Russia and 1300 km from Ukraine. And of course their naval drones have had quite an effect on Russia's warships.

        (recent sky new footage of them being sent off https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egEwObPT8zE)

      • JumpCrisscross6 days ago
        > hitting an enemy unit from a another dynamic military

        Would note that Russia’s failure to execute combined-arms manoeuvre-based warfare technically makes it a static fighting force.

        • throwup2386 days ago
          I think it’s better to look at it as a spectrum and Russia’s place on it differs based on time and place. They don’t have the air superiority to carry out the kinds of operations the US could and what seems like a suboptimal command structure but they are getting increasingly more organized, especially as the war drags on and they develop/acquire more adaptions like the Shahed drones or glide bomb conversion kits. IMO the biggest thing getting in their way is the desperate human wave tactics that hamper their ability to grow a veteran core that could actually organize the combined arms.
          • JumpCrisscross6 days ago
            > but they are getting increasingly more organized, especially as the war drags on and they develop/acquire more adaptions like the Shahed drones or glide bomb conversion kits

            I’m not suggesting they aren’t a lethal fighting force. They’re just not a dynamic one. They still rely on static tactics, i.e. blowing up the enemy, versus dynamic ones that rely on manoeuvre.

            • throwup2386 days ago
              I don’t mean lethality either. It’s hard to craft an argument here without doing a blog post length comment (that I’m hardly qualified to write) but even from the last week there’s evidence of Russian FPV drone use with very mobile forces: https://armyrecognition.com/focus-analysis-conflicts/army/co...

              I don’t know where you draw the line between static and dynamic/modern but IMO they’re clearly in the latter mode at least some of the time, even though it’s hard to tell which attacks are strategic and which are the result of combined arms tactics due to fog of war.

              • JumpCrisscross6 days ago
                > don’t know where you draw the line between static and dynamic/modern

                “Biddle identifies what he calls the ‘Modern System’ of combat (though I am going to treat it a bit more broadly than he does). In short, it’s a set of tactics and operational art that emerged out of the First World War and were refined in the European theaters (East and West) of the Second, to cope with the tremendous potency of industrialized firepower which had fundamentally reshaped war. Rather than relying on fixed positions for defense and dense shock-formations (‘shock’ here – think ‘bayonets, grenades and trench-knives’), the modern system relies on cover-and-concealment for survivability and maneuver in the offense (go around, not through your opponent’s overwhelming firepower). Adroit use of terrain on the tactical level is a key component of the system, which in turn requires both extensive training of junior officers and NCOs and devolving quite a bit of command agency down to them so that they can make local decisions (compare to, for instance, linear tactics which leave virtually no decision-making to the individual rifleman).

                Static-System armies, since – as we’ll see – in modern warfare, they tend to be a fair bit more fixed and static than the modern system armies (note: I’m going to keep calling them ‘armies’ for simplicity, but the modern system combined land and air assets), preferring to dig in for sieges and trench warfare. So again: static system (old, cheap) vs. modern system (new, expensive). And remember: this is a difference in doctrine not equipment, in how an army expects to fight their battles and how they actually do – a difference in how, not in what. It is possible to have all of the tools of the modern system, and still not have the training or will to do the modern system (indeed, Iraq did just this in 1991 and got torn apart for it). You can buy tanks and planes, but you cannot buy the modern system, you must train it.“

                Russia’s human waves are a trench tactic. Command flows entirely top down. They’re going straight at the enemy. And training is virtually impossible given the expendability of their troops.

                https://acoup.blog/2020/03/20/collections-why-dont-we-use-ch...

                • throwup2386 days ago
                  While Brett Devereaux is excellent, he’s sharing a surface level, black and white definition suited to a blog post aimed at laymen, the kind that want to read about the siege of Gondor. Biddle’s Military Power: Explaining Victory and Defeat in Modern Battle is a much more in depth treatment of the topic that is hardly that prescriptive.

                  Edit: if you are so inclined, Commanding Military Power: Organizing for Victory and Defeat on the Battlefield by Ryan Grauer, The Art of Maneuver: Maneuver Warfare Theory and Airland Battle by Robert Leonhard, and Combined Arms Warfare in the Twentieth Century by Jonathan House would provide a more rounded view of the academic debate. The latter is particularly relevant because it looks at Russia’s tactics in Chechnya.

            • esseph5 days ago
              Their leadership and training is not pushed to the lower levels like in the US military NCO corps. Russian warfare is extremely. . bureaucratic.
  • TheBicPen6 days ago
    This reads like a piece of defense propaganda. "Undoing the 1990s decision" - should we really return the US defense industry to cold-war levels? The world has changed, and the threat of outright war with the US is dramatically lower than 4 decades ago. Yes, China is an adversary, but to say that it's an existential threat to the US the same way the Soviet Union was is absurd.
    • uejfiweun6 days ago
      [deleted]
      • TheBicPen6 days ago
        Say what you will about the current situation, at least there is no nuclear arms race. I'd say that's a pretty big distinction.
      • ok_dad6 days ago
        Claims that other people are propagandizing are ridiculous with zero evidence, that’s some FUD BS. Make a better argument against OP if you’re so sure.
        • 6 days ago
          undefined
      • barbazoo6 days ago
        > And they (China) are explicitly interested in overturning the global order.

        - Putin is actively taking Ukrainian territory by force

        - Trump is threatening to take Greenland, Canada and the Panama canal by (economic) force

        - Xi Jinping is threatening to take Taiwanese territory by force

        Of all three, Jinping seems like the smallest threat to the "world order".

        If you're talking about economic power, that's a different story but I wouldn't call them "adversary" in that context.

        • stickfigure6 days ago
          Nobody takes Trump's comments seriously. Possibly not even Trump.

          Putin is in a hot war right now. Xi seems to be actively preparing for one. The chance of the US sitting aside a military invasion of Taiwan seems very low to me.

          • Loughla6 days ago
            It's been, what, 10 years of Trump now. If you're not taking what he says seriously, you have failed to learn anything.
            • stickfigure6 days ago
              His first term was mostly inconsequential. The second term looks different so far - especially for the Ukranians - but the Canadians, Mexicans, and Greenlanders/Danes aren't preparing for war. To be honest, I think the US military would flatly refuse. There would be violent revolution in the streets here.
  • xnx6 days ago
    It's shocking to me the Secretary of Defense confirmation hearing only mentioned "drone" once, and that was not in reference to the future of warfare.

    Ukraine has made pretty clear that drones will play a huge roll in future major conflicts. It's crazy that we haven't already shifted major portions of the defense budget from legacy weapons systems (e.g. tanks) to drones.

    • nradov6 days ago
      I guess you haven't been paying attention. The Marine Corps has divested its tanks in preparation for fighting an island-hopping campaign against China.

      https://www.marines.mil/News/News-Display/Article/2857680/fo...

      • euroderf5 days ago
        It's pretty amazing that an American armed forces service gave up an entire lineup of weaponry. 2021: "The Marine Corps had more than 450 tanks prior to the deactivation of the tank battalions. To date, MCSC has transferred more than 400 tanks to the Army. The remaining tanks in the Marine Corps inventory are afloat globally on Maritime Prepositioning Ships and are scheduled for transfer to the Army over the next few years."
    • robertlagrant6 days ago
      I'm pretty sure the US had drones before Ukraine occurred. The US does invest in drones. Maybe they will more, but we're probably a little way away from them assuming the role of tanks any time soon.
      • pjc506 days ago
        "Drone" gets used to cover a lot of things; full aircraft sized Reaper/Predator drones down to toy-sized quadcopters. It's the latter which Ukraine has been developing, including a unique solution to ECM: the fiber-optic drone.

        Small drones do not assume the role of tanks. Drones assume the role of WW1 aircraft: artillery spotters and very light bombing capability. They have this role there because both sides have SAM superiority over the other's airforce.

        Drones solve the problem that combat aircraft are too expensive and too easy to shoot down.

        • robertlagrant6 days ago
          > Small drones do not assume the role of tanks

          I'm not saying they do. I was replying to a comment.

        • FreebasingLLMs5 days ago
          > very light bombing capability.

          Define "light". Ukraine is fielding FPV drones with EFPs attached that can easily slice into anything armored.

      • jcgrillo6 days ago
        There's things like the Anduril Bolt. They cost like 100x as much as devices the Ukranians are building from cardboard. Another major innovation is TOW style fiber optic control which is immune to electronic countermeasures. There's definitely a lot to learn, but sadly necessity is the mother of invention and not since WW2 has manufacturing cost really been a serious concern for US defense production. Seems like we'll need a really big war to make that essential, and then there's an open question whether we'd actually be able to do it given that nobody knows how to do anything anymore.
        • robertlagrant6 days ago
          > Seems like we'll need a really big war to make that essential, and then there's an open question whether we'd actually be able to do it given that nobody knows how to do anything anymore.

          I'm not sure if I'd be rooting for this eventuality.

          • jcgrillo6 days ago
            No, I'm definitely not! But I can't imagine the US defense sector doing anything sensible otherwise.
    • moduspol6 days ago
      Yep. It boggles my mind that we still do aircraft flyovers at big football games. Those should be drones doing coordinated light shows--even in heavy winds, rain, and unfavorable conditions. Just to show that we've mastered it, and that we can do it easily even when there are no stakes.

      My genuine hope is that secretly we actually are really good with drones and just strategically have decided not to broadcast it, but I don't think that's the way forward. It needs to be known that we've absolutely mastered them.

      You know, kind of like the Chinese have done with their drone shows at the Olympics and similar events.

      • jandrewrogers6 days ago
        > My genuine hope is that secretly we actually are really good with drones and just strategically have decided not to broadcast it

        I am confused.

        The US has massive fleets of military drones of every type and size that have been proven in combat environments. They literally pioneered the development of this type of military system and have been using them operationally decades before anyone else. Did everyone just forget this?

        The US has extremely mature and capable drone technology, much better than a lot of what is being used in Ukraine. Really the only question is the ability of the US to scale production if it needed to.

        • mopsi6 days ago
          Entire categories of drones are missing from the US arsenal, such as the ultra-cheap wire-guided ones that allow Ukrainians to fly 20 km into the enemy's rear, enter buildings, explore them from the inside, and leave behind presents or detonate immediately if they find any targets. Such drones can be seen at the start of this video, and at the very end too, when they are sneaking up to artillery and puncturing gun barrels: https://x.com/NOELreports/status/1893632328108220538

          The US leads in larger drones, like the Global Hawk, which is the size of a regional airliner, can stay airborne for more than a day, and cover tens of thousands of kilometers in that time. The smaller and cheaper ones are just expensive toys, far behind what's seen in Ukraine in terms of actual usefulness. A cheap Chinese agricultural sprayer drone with equally cheap 3D-printed drum of infantry grenades or an anti-tank mine strapped to it outperforms most "military grade" commercial offerings like Switchblade that cost ten times as much and are good for only a single use, unlike the sprayer, which returns home after dropping its payload.

          • 5423542342355 days ago
            The US doesn’t try to build cheap One-Way Attack drones like Ukraine because the US has the most advanced air force in the world and utilizes that for surveillance and combat. They have advanced communications and battlefield coordination tools so that a small unit commander doesn’t need to carry/use drones. They can get surveillance from those Global Hawks and call in strikes from Reapers. The drones allow Ukraine to conduct asymmetric warfare against a larger force with more resources. The US is the larger force, and so those types of drones are a niche product, not a primary weapon.
          • jandrewrogers5 days ago
            The US has a different drone tech tree than Ukraine. Ukraine is adapting to the limitations of the cheap drones available to them. There is value in this as operational knowledge but it is a mistake to assume that the US is bound by similar constraints. They do things differently because they have other options. The US has plenty of experience designing wire-guided systems; they largely abandoned them for a reason.

            There is much to learn about drone warfare from Ukraine but I would not expect a conflict with advanced technical capabilities to look similar.

      • Syonyk6 days ago
        > My genuine hope is that secretly we actually are really good with drones and just strategically have decided not to broadcast it...

        What would you call the Reapers and such? The US has a massive fleet of large, armed drones, remotely operated, and quite a few are capable of being armed.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmanned_aerial_vehicles_in_th...

        It's different from the consumer/small commercial drones being talked about here, but the US Military is pretty darn good at UAVs.

        • xnx6 days ago
          True. This is a very different class of drone. What is the defense against an adversary who releases a thousand quadcopter style drones against a US aircraft carrier?
          • 00N86 days ago
            The carriers aren't sailing around alone - they're escorted by a whole fleet (plus air patrol) that will intercept the drone launching vehicle at multiple dozen nautical miles range. Smaller quadcopter drones won't even get close to catching the carrier (which can travel over 40 kts while evading) before their batteries die. And even if a few hundred got through, how much damage can they really do? I'd imagine the flight decks can be patched quickly, although some radar equipment & any jets parked at the time of the attack would probably be lost.

            It's definitely a concern as part of a larger attack, but I don't think a quadcopter drone swarm alone is likely to sink a carrier or leave it combat ineffective in the long term.

            • euroderf5 days ago
              Agreed. But there's going to be "happy medium" drones that can be delivered by a long-range mothership. Price is no object when you can take out a carrier.
              • nradov5 days ago
                That's just silly. For attacks against surface targets, the bombers or strike aircraft (possibly unmanned) are going to continue carrying large, fast cruise missiles just like they have been since the 1960's. There is zero reason to use quadcopter type drones for this mission.
                • euroderf5 days ago
                  Maybe figure out what types of swarms China _can_ defend against, and then send a different type of swarm.
          • nradov6 days ago
            The type of quadcopter style drones that can be produced in the thousands have very short range and limited sensors. How are they going to get to the aircraft carrier? The lessons learned in a land conflict in Eastern Europe have little relevance to the Pacific Theater, where the US Navy intends to focus now.
          • esseph5 days ago
            Insanely sophisticated electronic warfare that can disrupt / defeat / destroy.

            A few nice miniguns with radars sensitive enough to pick up birds that fire flak.

            Auto cannons.

            Missiles.

            ... Lasers.

    • V__6 days ago
      I would be really interested in a deep analysis. Ukraine doesn't have air superiority and the war has evolved into trench warfare.. thus drones are a very usefull tool.

      But would this still be the case for a conflict with US involvement?

      • tim3336 days ago
        If you think of the Iraq or Afghanistan wars, maybe not during the initial attack but once there were troops on the ground they would likely be vulnerable.
      • rtkwe6 days ago
        The major threat is SAM and other anti air. Maybe the US's stealth or long range cruise missiles would be enough to knock down and keep down the opponents anti air coverage but it's not guaranteed. Neither side has been able to gain safe access to the skies in this whole conflict, modern AA is just able to cover such a wide area it's hard to get ground assets close enough to strike.
        • pjc506 days ago
          > Maybe the US's stealth or long range cruise missiles would be enough to knock down and keep down the opponents anti air coverage but it's not guaranteed.

          That's what those capabilities are designed to do ("SEAD"), but they're very expensive. And so strategic that the US wasn't willing to let the Ukranians have any.

          • rtkwe6 days ago
            Of course yeah, the main thing is they've not really been tested in a while against OpFor radar or AA so I have some reservations about it actually working long term. The last time they really tested at all was 2003 during the second Iraq war. Even if they can knock out dedicated AA manpads could still pose a significant threat they haven't had to encounter in a while.

            If they work like they should on paper and can keep the opponents pinned to the ground under US air supremacy it'll be great but there's always that little doubt that it will work as well against a more evenly match opponent like a theoretical US v Russia/China when it's not punching down so far.

  • 6 days ago
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  • yimby20016 days ago
    I think the weakness of this argument is that “domestic American drones” will just be using parts, or entire drones, made in China

    “Ukraine are producing two-and-a-half drones a day now.“ What is that supposed to mean? A drone has a lot of parts. I can make 2 1/2 drones a day if I have the parts.

  • slimjimrick6 days ago
    Interesting read