We need a C- ore µC:
No implicit cast except for literals and void* (explicit compile time/runtime casts), one loop statement (loop{}), no switch/enum/generic/_thread/typeof/etc, no integer promotion, only sized primitive types (u64 s32 f32 etc...), no anonymous code block, real compiler hard/compile time constant declaration, many operators have to go (--,++, a?b:c, etc)... and everything I am forgetting right now (the dangerous struct pack attribute...). But we need inline keywords for memory barriers, atomics for modern hardware architecture programming.
You should be able to generate machine code without the need of any runtime, like you can with C.
The only thing I can think of that you might be referring to is compiler-rt: if so, this is a thing in C too! It's just a small collection of implementations for operations the code generator wants to call into (e.g. memset, arithmetic for integers larger than CPU word size). Clang uses compiler-rt when compiling C code, and GCC's equivalent is libgcc. Nonetheless, Zig lets you disable it using `-fno-compiler-rt`, in which case you'll need to provide the relevant symbols yourself somehow.
(For context, by the way, I'm on the Zig "core team"; I'm a notable contributor to the project.)
Another usecase for microC: most decompilers decompile to a custom C-like language. It pretends to be C, but in reality this is just a representation of a recovered AST that is often-but not always-a valid C code. MicroC would be a better target, because it would supposedly have less weird edge cases.
MASM and TASM, were already far beyond the features in K&R C, if we overlook the issue of being bound to 80x86 Assembly.
TI has some DSPs where their Assembly is basically bare bones C like, in a SSA kind of approach.
If your goal is a simple language to compile, well, Rust won't ever fit the bill; but as a target for a decompiler, I think the unsafe subset is worth exploring.
And even before that release, there were macros the poly fill it, so you could have used those to target an earlier version.
It's definitely something I would like to see at least explored!
That depends on the assembly language. Some have structure constructs, some are typed. Portability is out.
But if you accept a slightly higher abstraction, WebAssembly is portable, typed, and structured.
Does WebAssembly support AOT compilation to native binaries? I thought it was just a VM.
Or use an existing implement like wasmedge, I guess.
Wait... we have it... RISC-V.
But we need performant µArchitectures of all major use cases (server/desktop/mobile/etc) and that on the best silicon process.
If RISC-V is a success, no need for a µC, just go RISC-V assembly BUT... do not abuse that macro preprocessor, because if it is to move complexity from the C syntax to some macro preprocessor, that would be pointless.
I guess, we are looking for even simpler thas sphinx c--.
I start to wonder, if I could not express such simple C syntax using a powerful assembler macro preprocessor (like the one of fasm2). Until there is a "expression" processor, it should kind of be easier.
Read up on Forth languages. It's pretty much exactly what you're after.
void emitd(struct buf *buf, int opcode, uint_least32_t address);
or however it looks inside your assembler without caring what sizeof(int) is (assuming CHAR_BIT is 8). By comparison, in Forth that will be emitd ( buf op adr -- ) ( 32-bit host )
emitd ( buf op ahi alo -- ) ( 16-bit host )
depending on the bitness of where your assembler runs, even if the machine it assembles for is exactly the same in both cases. You cannot hide the platform difference behind a typedef for uint_least32_t or whatnot, unless you’re willing to drastically reshape the entirety of Forth from inside (which it does allow). int array[10];
*(array+1) = 56;
array[2] = 4;
3[array] = 27;
The first two are obvious, but the third is also legal. It works because array indexing is just sugar for pointer arithmetic, so array[2]=4 is identical in meaning to *(array+2)=4. Therefore 3[array]=27 is identical to *(3+array)=27 and so is legal. But just because you can doesn't mean you should.https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/198207.Expert_C_Programm...
> There is one other convention — sometimes we repeat a key point to emphasize it. In addition, we sometimes repeat a key point to emphasize it.
One more quote and I'll stop:
> ctime() converts its argument into local time, which will vary from GMT, depending on where you are. California, where this book was written, is eight hours behind London, and several years ahead
D doesn't have that bug!
In 44 years of C programming, I've never encountered a legitimate use for the 3rd. (Other than Obfuscated C, that is.))
But I call it a bug because it has no use and just pointlessly confuses people.
The obvious one is rather than a function pointer typedef, such the subsequent use in a struct is obviously a pointer. Which helps when others are initially reading unfamiliar structures.
typedef int handler_ty(int a);
struct foo {
handler_ty *handler;
/* ... */
}
struct foo table[] = { { /* init fields */, /* init fields */, };
The other case can be somewhat related, namely as an assertion / check when writing such handler functions, and more importantly updating them. handler_ty some_handler;
int some_handler(int a) { /* ... */ }
When updating code, it allowed for easier to decode compiler errors if the expected type of handler_ty was changed, and some specific handler was incorrectly updated, or not updated at all.Basically the error would generally directly call out the inconsistency with the prior line, rather than with the distanct use in the initialisation of 'table'.
As I recall this mechanism has been around since at least C89, I don't recall using it in K&R.
> void foo(int a[m][m], int m)
Currently you can only do: > void foo(int m, int a[m][m])
The holy grail is being able to update the prototypes of functions like snprintf to something like: > int snprintf(char buf[bufsiz], size_t bufsiz, const char *, ...);
However, array pointer decay means that foo above is actually: > void foo(int (*a)[m], int m)
Likewise, the snprintf example above would be little different than the current definition.There's related syntax, like
> foo (int m, int a[static m])
But a is still just a pointer, and while it can help some static analyzers to detect mismatched buffer size arguments at the call site, the extent of the analysis is very limited as decay semantics effectively prevent tracing the propagation of buffer sizes across call chains, even statically.There's no active proposal at the moment to make it possible to pass VM arrays (or rather, array references) directly to functions--you can only pass pointers to VM array types. That actually works (sizeof *a == sizeof (int) * m when declaring int (*a)[m] in the prototype), but the code in the function body becomes very stilted with all the syntactical dereferencing--and it's just syntactical as the same code is generated for a function parameter of `int (*a)[m]` as for `int *a` (underneath it's the same pointer value rather than an extra level of memory indirection). There are older proposals but they all lost steam because there aren't any existing implementation examples in any major production C compilers. Without that ability, the value of forward declarations is greatly diminished. Because passing VM array types to functions already requires significant refactoring, most of the WG14 felt it wasn't worth the risk of adopting GCC's syntax when everybody could (and should?) just start declaring size parameters before their respective buffer parameters in new code.
And yes, for new APIs you could just change the order, but it does help also with legacy APIs. It does even when not using pointers to arrays: https://godbolt.org/z/TM5Mn95qK (I agree that new APIs should pass a pointer to a VLA).
(edited because I am agreeing with most of what you said)
I know that was a common opinion pre-C23, but it feels like the committee trying to reshape the world to their desires (and their designs). It's a longstanding convention that C APIs accept (address, length) pairs in that order. So changing that will already get you a score of -4 on the Hard to Misuse List[1], for "Follow common convention and you'll get it wrong". (The sole old exception in the standard is the signature of main(), but that's somewhat vindicated by the fact that nobody really needs to call main(); there is a new exception in the standard in the form of Meneide's conversion APIs[2], which I seriously dislike for that reason.)
The reason I was asking is that 'uecker said it was requested at the committee draft stage for C23 by some of the national standards orgs. That's already ancient history of course, but I hoped the idea itself was still alive, specifically because I don't want to end up in the world where half of C APIs are (address, length) and half are (length, address), when the former is one of the few C conventions most everyone agrees on currently.
[1] https://ozlabs.org/~rusty/index.cgi/tech/2008-04-01.html
[2] https://thephd.dev/_vendor/future_cxx/papers/C%20-%20Restart...
$ make texe
cc -g -O2 -std=c11 -Wall -Wextra -Wpedantic -Werror -c -o test.o test.c
test.c: In function ‘do_test_formatSmallElem’:
test.c:108:9: error: ‘matSmallElemFormat’ accessing 8 bytes in a region of size 2 [-Werror=stringop-overflow=]
108 | matSmallElemFormat(elem, buffer);
| ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
test.c:108:9: note: referencing argument 2 of type ‘char *’
In file included from test.c:8:
mat/display.h:17:6: note: in a call to function ‘matSmallElemFormat’
17 | void matSmallElemFormat(mElem elem, char buffer[static matSmallElemLen]);
| ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
cc1: all warnings being treated as errors
make: *** [<builtin>: test.o] Error 1
struct foo
{
size_t elements;
int data[];
};
foo foo123 = {.elements = array_size(data), .data = {1, 2, 3}};
or
struct str
{
size_t sz;
char str[];
}; str s123 = {.sz = strlen(.str), .str = "123"};
C was developed on a PDP-11 that had 64Kb of memory. That's not much of any at all. Therefore, the compiler must be extremely tightly coded.
The fundamental rules of the C language are pretty simple. But articles like these expose consequences of such simple rules. Fixing them requires adding more code. Adding more code means less room for the code being compiled.
Therefore, if the intended use of the language works, the pragmatic approach would be to simply not worry about the quirky consequences.
A more interesting question would be "why do these characteristics persist in modern C compilers?"
The stock answer is "backwards compatibility", "Obfuscated C Code contests" and "gotcha job interview questions". My argument would be that there is no reason for the persistence of such "junk DNA" and it should be deprecated and removed.
I've done my part. D doesn't support that stuff, even though the basic use of the language is easily confused with C.
For example:
#include <stdio.h>
void main()
{
int i;
for (i = 0; i < 10; ++i);
printf("%d\n", i);
}
I've died on that hill. I know others who lost an entire day staring at it wondering what's wrong with it. I saw it on X recently as "99% of C programmers will not be able to find the bug."The equivalent D code:
import core.stdc.stdio;
void main()
{
int i;
for (i = 0; i < 10; ++i);
printf("%d\n", i);
}
gets you: test.d(5): Error: use `{ }` for an empty statement, not `;`
C'mon, Standard C! Fix that!Both gcc and clang give a warning[1] for that code with just "-Wall", so I's hard to imagine it being a real problem these days.
Compiler warnings are a good source of material for things that need to be fixed in the language. Unfortunately, every compiler has their own set of warnings, and sometimes warnings from different compilers contradict each other. That encourages programmers to not use the warning feature. That's another reason why the language should be fixed.
Anyway, ranting on HackerNews does not get anything fixed: https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/contributing.htm...
It usually might go so bad, that after a couple of years, a new management ends up onshoring it all over again.
You might turn -Wall, but then who fixes the warnings?
And better be prepared to fight managament if warnings break the build, as it "slows down sprint velocity with useless coding efforts".
Unless required by some kind of certification laws or quality assessement on project delivery.
Fun story. A friend of mine (Eric Engstrom!) bought himself a backhoe. I'd never driven one before and he offered to let me drive it. Sure!
The clutch pedal works backwards from that in a car. Press on the clutch to engage it, release the pedal to disengage it. After some struggling with my reflexes being all wrong, I came within a couple feet of taking out the side of his barn - by switching off the key.
There was nothing wrong with that user interface, other than being insane.
I always use brackets too. That's simply a less error-prone style.
$ gcc-12 -g -O2 -std=c11 -Wall -Wextra -Wpedantic -Werror c-error.c
c-error.c:2:10: error: return type of ‘main’ is not ‘int’ [-Werror=main]
2 | void main()
| ^~~~
c-error.c: In function ‘main’:
c-error.c:5:9: error: this ‘for’ clause does not guard... [-Werror=misleading-indentation]
5 | for (i = 0; i < 10; ++i);
| ^~~
c-error.c:6:13: note: ...this statement, but the latter is misleadingly indented as if it were guarded by the ‘for’
6 | printf("%d\n", i);
| ^~~~~~
cc1: all warnings being treated as errors
and: $ clang-14 -g -O2 -std=c11 -Wall -Wextra -Wpedantic -Werror c-error.c
c-error.c:2:5: error: 'main' must return 'int'
void main()
^~~~
int
c-error.c:5:33: error: for loop has empty body [-Werror,-Wempty-body]
for (i = 0; i < 10; ++i);
^
c-error.c:5:33: note: put the semicolon on a separate line to silence this warning
2 errors generated.
Now granted, those are specific implementations, not things mandated by language changes.I can't wait to slip this into some production code to confuse the hell out of some intern in a few years
How to Get Fired Using Switch Statements & Statement Expressions:
https://blog.robertelder.org/switch-statements-statement-exp...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40835274 (113 comments)
(A)(B);
It could be a cast of B to type A, or function A being called with argument B.Or this (like the puts(puts) in the article):
A(B):
Could be a declaration of B as an identifier of type A, or a call to a function A with argument B.Back in 1999 I made a small C module called "sfx" (side effects) which parses and identifies C expressions that could plausibly contain side effects. This is one of the bits provided in a small collection called Kazlib.
This can be used to make macros safer; it lets you write a #define macro that inserts an argument multiple times into the expansion. Such a macro could be unsafe if the argument has side effects. With this module, you can write the macro in such a way that it will catch the situation (albeit at run time!). It's like a valgrind for side effects in macros, so to speak.
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/kazlib.git/tree/sfx.c
In the sfx.c module, there is a rudimentary C expression parser which has to work in the absence of declaration info. In other words it has to make sense of an input like (A)(B).
I made it so that when the parser encounters an ambiguity, it will try parsing it both ways, using backtracking via exception handling (provided by except.c). When it hits a syntax error, it can backtrack to an earlier point and parse alternatively.
Consider (A)(A+B). When we are looking at the left part (A), that could plausibly be a cast or declaration. In recursive descent mode, we are going left to right and looking at left derivations. If we parse it as a declaration, we will hit a syntax error on the +, because there is no such operator in the declarator grammar. So we backtrack and parse it as a cast expression, and then we are good.
Hard to believe that was 26 years ago now. I think I was just on the verge of getting into Lisp.
I see the sfx.c code assumes it would never deal with negative character values, so it cheerfully uses the <ctype.h> functions without a cast to unsigned char. It's a reasonable assumption there since the inputs under the intended use case would be expressions in the user's program, stringified by the preprocessor. Funny bytes would only occur in a multi-byte string literal (e.g. UTF-8). When I review code today, this kind of potential issue immediately stands out.
The same exception module is (still?) used in the Ethereal/Wireshark packet capture and analysis tool. It's used to abort "dissecting" packets that are corrupt or truncated.
Declarations in for loops is something that I had only ever used in macros (I had not found it useful in other circumstances), such as:
#define lpt_document() for(int lpt_document_=lpt_begin();lpt_document_;lpt_document_=(lpt_end(),0))
#define win_form(xxx) for(win_memo win_mem=win_begin_();;win_step_(&win_mem,xxx))
(The compiler will optimize out the loop and the declared variable in the use of the lpt_document macro; I had tested this.)C is clearly too small to be simple. C++ is too large to be simple. Somewhere in between, there may exist a simple language waiting to be invented.
That's not to say you can't create interesting monstrocities out of it!
In short, you can initialize an array like this, by specifying each element in order:
int foo[] = {10,20,30}; // initialize elements 0, 1, and 2
However, you can also initialize specific array elements: int foo[] = {[50] 10, [51] 20, [52] 30}; // initialize elements 50, 51, 52
"BASIC compatibility" mode uses the above syntax.Using designated initializers without the = symbol is an obsolete extension.
[1] https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Compound-Literals.html [2] https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Designated-Inits.html
void g(); void f() { return g(); }
And IMO it's quite a nice feature, useful sometimes for reducing boilerplate in early returns. It's the obvious consequence if you don't treat void as some extremely-special syntax but rather as just another type, perhaps alike an empty struct (though that's not valid C either ¯\_(ツ)_/¯) that's just implicitly returned at the end of a void-returning function, and a "return;" statement implicitly "creates" a value of void.
In fact in Rust (and probably a bunch of other languages that I'm too lazy to remember) void-returning functions are done via returning a 0-tuple.
Sanity restored.
void g();
Means that g is a function which takes a not-specified number of arguments (but not a variable number of arguments).Almost always what you want to do is
void g(void)
Which says that g takes 0 arguments.Having said that, declaring it as g() should work fine as long as you always provided that you always invoke it with the correct arguments. If you try invoking it with the wrong arguments, then the compiler will let you, and your program may just break in fun and exciting ways.
Edit: looking closer, it looks like the intent might have been to alias f and g. But, as discussed above, it does so in a way that will break horribly if g expects any arguments.
Here, g()'s return type is void, so there's no value to return and at the same time, f()'s return type is void, so return should not have an expr to begin with.
This statement is effectively equivalent to: "g(); return;".
Thats one way to think about it. Another is that void is a type - which is obviously true given you can have void* pointers and functions can return void. In this example, f() returns a void expression, so that’s a perfectly fine thing to return from g.
Money quote;
We stopped when we got a clean compile on the following syntax:
for(;P("\n"),R-;P("|"))for(e=3DC;e-;P("_"+(u++/8)%2))P("|"+(u/4)%2);
I am NOT going to try it out.
But as time pass, I'm more and more convinced that wiping-out every peace of C that was ever produced would be one of the greatest possible gesture for the future of humanity.
I also have a theory that universe exits so we can have some opportunities to taste chocolate. Surely in that perspective, even C can be an unfortunate but acceptable byproduct.
The notorious nasal demons may not be in conflict with the C standard, but they are not going to actually happen, because they only exist in the imagination. The example is given to illustrate by absurdity that the scope of consequential defects is greater than "your program may crash", that's all. If you do wish to produce a similar effect then I suggest consuming a bowl of Buldak instant noodles whilst inducing a sneeze during compilation. Warning: your sinuses will not thank you. And cover your keyboard.
The biggest hazard with undefined behaviour is that the compiler is not required to issue warnings or errors when encountered.
It is instructive to read what Ritchie himself thought of various UBs "specified" by the ANSI committee - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20171616
That doesn't void completely what C achieved at a technical level, of course. But it certainly ponder differently how much its spread can be weighted on its technical benefits.
I'm not sure what you mean with "terse syntax" here. To my mind what this article cover is more about convoluted constructions permitted by the languages. The C-user community tends to have a more abundant use of terse identifiers, which I personally find detrimental to the readability with no sound benefit; but this has nothing to do with syntax. An other thing that the article point to in that case is how much overloaded are the reserved tokens like parentheses and the asterisk, and syntax here too is marginally involved at best. That is, we could use `schtroumpf` and `schtroumpfly` instead of `(` and `)` and `schtroumpfing` instead of `*` without changing anything to the nub of the ergonomics issues this implies. What you can infer from looking at a line of code regarding how the compiler will interpret it is not a question of terseness, it's a matter of how much context sensitive the language is and how much the community follows idioms with assiduity which allows cognitively cheaper correct inferences most of the time.
All programming languages have their pitfalls, it just happens that C comes with many original surprising ones, with paths of least cognitive resistance easily matching big trouble ahead. In a nutshell, C has terrible ergonomics, which makes no wonder it might be despised by some who have to reluctantly use it. But of course C will receive more harsh/gentle critics proportionally to the attention weight it has in the industry.
These type of constructs are just intellectual curiosities and not really related to actual usage.
Should this misfortune befall you, please don't get on an airplane (with me).