41 pointsby pseudolusa year ago8 comments
  • openriska year ago
    > The Three-Body Problem is one of the most famous unsolvable problems in mathematics and theoretical physics

    This claim might seem incongruous with the fact that they obviously analyze three-body systems and "discover" interesting things about their dynamics.

    The subtlety rests on the definition of "solvable", which here means (loosely) to express the trajectories of the gravitational bodies in terms of "known functions", thus to have an "exact solution" that one can write down in mathematical notation, say x = sin(w t), instead of an approximate (numerical) solution that is a stream of numbers.

    The chase of exact solutions was a holy grail for 18th/19th century physics but has lost much of its mystique in the 20th century. On the one hand the systems of interest become much more complex (thus in general "unsolvable") and on the other hand the invention of digital computers enabled new forms of analysis.

    • skhunteda year ago
      What you say is correct but isn't it the case that numerical solutions necessarily involve approximations and the error in those approximations in some systems becomes too great over time. Thus the predictive power isn't there for numerical solutions that is present when exact solutions are known.
      • openriska year ago
        That is true. Exact solutions have further advantages: they are expressed in terms of parameters (integration constants) which means that one can get deep insights into a system's behavior under changing parameters. In a numerical approach replicating such studies can be very cumbersome.

        But the irony is that in the broad scheme of things "interesting" exact solutions are very rare, almost freakish. The only systems we can reliably solve are linear :-). So while numerical approaches have weaknesses, they are the de-facto available tool in most cases.

      • Someonea year ago
        …assuming that the functions used in the closed-form expression can be efficiently computed to arbitrary precision.

        What constitutes a closed-form expression depends on context/is up for debate:

        - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed-form_expression#Alterna...:

        “Changing the definition of "well known" to include additional functions can change the set of equations with closed-form solutions. Many cumulative distribution functions cannot be expressed in closed form, unless one considers special functions such as the error function or gamma function to be well known. It is possible to solve the quintic equation if general hypergeometric functions are included, although the solution is far too complicated algebraically to be useful. For many practical computer applications, it is entirely reasonable to assume that the gamma function and other special functions are well known since numerical implementations are widely available.”

        - https://mathworld.wolfram.com/Closed-FormSolution.html:

        “For example, an infinite sum would generally not be considered closed-form. However, the choice of what to call closed-form and what not is rather arbitrary since a new "closed-form" function could simply be defined in terms of the infinite sum.”

        so that’s not a given.

      • BlueTemplara year ago
        Which is exacerbated in simulations featuring chaotic behaviour, where changes to initial conditions smaller than what the numerical simulation is representing, result in wildly different outcomes after only a short amount of time.
  • krisofta year ago
    A very well known stable case is the restricted 3-body problem. It is where one of the objects out of the 3 are so light that you can ignore it when calculating the orbits of the other two.

    It is of practical use often with spacecrafts, where the spacecraft is much much smaller than the Sun-Planet or Planet-Moon it orbits around. Jokingly one could say this is why you don't need to worry about the Sun-Earth system blowing up every time we boost the international space station to a higher orbit.

    • me_me_mea year ago
      Doesnt it make it 2-body problem then? If one variable is so insignificant that it is ignored whats the point of including it all together?
      • krisofta year ago
        > If one variable is so insignificant that it is ignored whats the point of including it all together?

        The variable is not ignored. The effect of that 3rd light mass on the other two is ignored. The effect of the two massive bodies on the 3rd is not ignored.

        As an example when you are planning orbital manoeuvres for the JWST space telescope you assume that the movements of the telescope won't affect the Moon or the Earth. But the Moon and the Earth will effect the position of the JWST. While this is not "true", it is accurate enough to work in practice.

        And of course the significance is that the 3rd light object is the only one the engineer controls. We can't change what the Earth or the Moon does, but we can make our spacecraft burn engines in a direction of our choosing. That gives a changed velocity vector. And then we can use the restricted 3-body problem to efficiently calculate where it will end up as a function of time.

  • pseudolusa year ago
    Full-text of journal publication: https://www.aanda.org/articles/aa/full_html/2024/09/aa49862-... . Pleasantly accessible to those who don't have advanced grad school math skills.
  • ricksunnya year ago
    'Islands of regularity' in the post title is a thoughtful allusion to the 'island of stability' long anticipated (and at the hairy edge, starting to be seen) in a cluster of superheavy element isotopes (like in tbe 110-120 atomic number range).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_of_stability

  • rbanffya year ago
    So, the San-Ti never actually had to expand beyond their system...

    I always suspected that Lebensraum discourse.

    • 243423443a year ago
      They did not have the power or technology to move stars.
      • apia year ago
        But they could fold up a supercomputer into a proton?

        I’m not buying it. Seems like a rationalization for imperialism.

        • rbanffya year ago
          I bet that computer could identify periods of stability very reliably well ahead of them happening.
      • jojohohanona year ago
        Pchst.

        If a bunch of puppets can fly stars around the galaxy in a Klemperer rosette, How Hard Can It Be?!

      • unkeena year ago
        *will not
  • a year ago
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  • bell-cota year ago
    Stable solutions to the 3-body problem were known centuries ago...but Phys.org couldn't resist adding "discovered" to their headline.

    The paper itself merely claims to have done a bunch of work to further characterize and statistically analyze 3-body situations.

  • rich_sashaa year ago
    So... Planets orbiting binary starts could host life..? :)
    • thyristana year ago
      Yes. Just imagine the Binary stars being very close compared to the distance to the habitable world. E.g. two sun-like stars in sun-mercury distance, and an earth-like planet somewhere between mars and jupiter.

      Three-body problems can be chaotic and can be ugly. But in the simplest case you can make them look like two-body problems and things will be just fine.

      • mr_toada year ago
        Most n-body systems are fairly stable just because of selection bias. The unstable systems didn’t last.
    • a year ago
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