WP Engine, the hero we didn't even know we needed. /s
So then what is WordPress.org in this context?
The previous Executive Director of WordPress was also an Automattic employee. When they were announced in the role their employment with Automattic also wasn't disclosed [3].
[1] https://www.pluginvulnerabilities.com/2024/10/02/who-or-what... [2] https://www.pluginvulnerabilities.com/2024/10/03/automattic-... [3] https://make.wordpress.org/updates/2019/01/16/expanding-word...
The author is identified as Neil Peretz, who it says is an associate general counsel at Automattic. He says:
"The Foundation also licensed the name WordPress to the non-profit WordPress.org, which runs a website that facilitates access to WordPress-related software."
A graphic included in the post similarly claims that "Right to use name as part of non-profit activities" went to WordPress. With the arrow coming from the WordPress Foundation.
We contacted Automattic's press email for clarification on that claim on Thursday. We have yet to hear back and the post hasn't been updated.
Could you explain what "that" refers to in your statement. I am asking because, lacking a clear definition of the question, I cannot say whether the answer is Yes, No, or something else.
I interpret it as a request for information about what is Matt's role in the ecosystem and I was gathering information to share about that.
However, if you are not interested in factual information, the answer is: YES, there are various parts of the the Wordpress cluster of organizations that do not ultimately answer to Matt.
Is this to imply that the answer Yes to the question about Matt's control over the organizations named WordPress is _not_ in fact factual?
Dictated not read.
YMHAOS
Is that true or false?
(Analogously, If software engineers only worked for perfect companies, companies wouldn’t have software engineers.)
I promise you, your integrity (or at least your license to practice law) are worth more than Matt's sinking ship. I hope you can move on to do something meaningful with you practice
Thanks for participating. I have an honest question:
How do you reconcile your post [0] claiming that Automattic controls all commercial aspects of the trademark with Matt's previous claim that "the most central piece of WordPress’s identity, its name, is now fully independent from any company" and that Automattic had "give[n] up control" of the marks? [1]
[0] https://automattic.com/2024/10/02/wordpress-trademarks-a-leg... [1] https://ma.tt/2010/09/wordpress-trademark/
The WordPress community operates on an open source, non-commercial basis. The community decides what is included in each release of WordPress, how it's tested, what documentation accompanies it, etc.
Because the WordPress Foundation, not Automattic, owns the WordPress trademarks for non-commercial use, Automattic has no control or veto of what code is stamped with the WordPress label.
By contrast, if Automattic retained non-commercial control over the WordPress trademarks it could refuse to affix the WordPress label to work done by and released by core contributor groups.
In case you are not familiar with how WordPress decisionmaking works: Volunteer contributors self-organize into groups that set their own goals, interface with other groups, allocate resources, plan a schedule, and resolve issues according to a Community Code of Conduct (see https://make.wordpress.org/handbook/community-code-of-conduc...). You can learn about how decisions are made in the WordPress project at https://learn.wordpress.org/course/how-decisions-are-made-in....
I am going to operate under the assumption that others may have similar questions, which is why I think this is a good topic for a blog post.
>Because the WordPress Foundation, not Automattic, owns the WordPress trademarks for non-commercial use, Automattic has no control or veto of what code is stamped with the WordPress label.
Respectfully, how the "code is stamped" wasn't the question, and nobody was worried about that. What people were worried about around the time of Matt's post (previously linked) was corporate control over the marks. That is the context under which Matt made the claim.
Given that context, would you describe the trademarks as being "fully independent from any company"?
If I may pick your brain some more; Where does this distinction between commercial and non-commercial use come from? The trademark assignment does not appear to make any such distinction: "..an exclusive, fully-paid, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, sublicensable right and license to use and otherwise exploit the trademarks...".
https://assignments.uspto.gov/assignments/assignment-tm-4233...
Which brings up something else I hope you can clarify: how can The Foundation grant wordpress.org a license if the licence granted to Automattic is exclusive? Wordpress.org as you know, is not a non-profit.
Thanks.
One need not be a non-profit corporation to engage in non-commercial use. Distributing open source software at no charge is not a commercial activity.
An analogy might be you or I volunteering at a community event. We are individuals, not non-profit corporations, however we would be engaged in non-commmercial activity.
Just one more question if you don't mind -
Where does this distinction between commercial and non-commercial use come from? The trademark assignment does not appear to make any such distinction: "..an exclusive, fully-paid, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, sublicensable right and license to use and otherwise exploit the trademarks...".
Not the parent commenter, but I'm guessing it comes from the usage part after:
> in connection with the hosting of blogs and web sites that utilize any version or component of the WordPress open source publishing platform product or open source successor of any of the foregoing on or in connection with www.wordpress.com and www.wordpress.tv (each and collectively, together with any subdomains of any of the foregoing, "Automatic Sites"), providing support for the Automatic Sites, and/or substantially similar uses in connection with the Automatic Sites.
That means Automattic's rights ares not restricted in any way despite their claims that The Foundation has exclusive non-commercial rights and Automattic does not.
Matt has tweeted about his final approval over WordCamp events despite members of the volunteer groups operating under the belief they had the final say, which undermines any attempt to claim these volunteer groups have any control (only the illusion of control): https://x.com/ryancduff/status/1841834672059199590
Automattic just poached Jason Bahl from WPEngine to bring WPGraphQL into core WordPress, demonstrating very clearly that Automattic have control over WordPress core: https://wordpress.org/news/2024/10/wpgraphql/
Matt has shared that he owns WordPress.org personally but that Automattic employs hundreds of people to work on it and spends millions of dollars financing it.
Ultimately, you work for Automattic and report to Matt so you're obligated to share his version of the world, but the version of the world you're describing only exists in Matt's head. There's no way to frame what is happening as independent of Automattic. I know that it doesn't matter to you personally, this is just a job, and once you leave Automattic you'll look back and laugh at the absurdity of this situation. I guess the point of my comment is to say: we all know that you know this is nonsense, you're convincing nobody. If you actually believe this nonsense (which I doubt, you're not an idiot) then you need to do a much better job of convincing people.
The person who ultimately controls what is included in a release of WordPress is the Release Lead. They are an employee of Automattic. We compiled a list of Release Leads going back to 2019: https://www.pluginvulnerabilities.com/2024/10/10/automattics...
It has been Matt Mullenweg 12 of 15 times. The other Release Leads were Josepha Haden Chomphosy and Matías Ventura, who were Automattic employees at the time.
So Automattic obviously does have control and a veto.
Are you also saying that Automattic employees have not led and had controlling power on teams that are making commits to WordPress?
Who are the board members of the WPF, and how active are they? My understanding is that there are three, and two are active.
Who is the CEO of Automattic? Let's not be naive and pretend that Automattic has "no control" over the WordPress Foundation when they share Presidents.
For one simple example, why did Matt Mullenweg, President of the independent, "no control from Automattic", WordPress Foundation disinvite WP Engine from a community event they sponsored, because they were in a legal dispute with Matt Mullenweg, President of entirely independent, arms-length Automattic?
The article you wrote claims "The Foundation also licensed the name WordPress to the non-profit WordPress.org, which runs a website that facilitates access to WordPress-related software."
Matt in his comment claims "All the information in the links you shared is totally wrong. Our lawyers have never said that WordPress.org is a non-profit or owned by the Foundation."
So which of you have it wrong?
Don't white wash a completely inaccurate and misleading statement as a typing error - that treats people like fools.
ESPECIALLY since this is one of DOZENS of recently citable instances where Matt refers to WP.org, Automattic, and the Foundation almost interchangably.
"Rushing to fix years of (intentionally/conveniently) muddy waters on org structures" is not "a typo in the past" - this is insulting to your audience.
The post has been updated to say that "The Foundation also licensed the name to the website WordPress.org, which facilitates widespread access to WordPress-related software at no charge." Websites presumably can't have trademark licenses. There must be a legal entity. Matt Mullenweg is claiming that he personally has the second license for the trademark [1], so not a website. A graphic included in the post similarly still claims that "Right to use name as part of non-profit activities" went to WordPress. With the arrow coming from the WordPress Foundation. There doesn't appear to be a non-profit.
The post states that "The right to use the WordPress marks for commercial purposes (e.g., selling software, hosting, and agency services) is owned by Automattic." The publicly available license states that Automattic has the right to use the trademark "in connection with the hosting of blogs and web sites [2]." So it looks like Automattic's rights are more limited. Maybe the license has been amended or there is an unstated belief that the license has a wider scope than the plain language of the license suggests. Having the foundation release all licenses agreements it has would help to clear things up, possibility for you, but definitely for everyone else.
In explaining how the license agreement between the foundation and Automattic happened, the post says that 'In order to effect a valid license agreement, there needs to be an actual exchange of value from both sides, which lawyers call "consideration."' But Matt Mullenweg [3] and what appears to be an Automattic employee writing for the WordPress Foundation [4] both stated at the time that Auomattic donated the trademark. Legally, a donation can't involve a consideration [5]. That would suggest there isn't a valid license agreement or there wasn't actually a donation.
We would suggest you consult with a lawyer about all that, but you are a lawyer.
[1] https://youtu.be/OUJgahHjAKU?t=442 [2] https://assignments.uspto.gov/assignments/assignment-tm-4233... [3] https://ma.tt/2010/09/wordpress-trademark/ [4] https://wordpressfoundation.org/news/2010/trademark/ [5] https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/donation
Indeed. And there was a lot of Consideration given in this exchange. Automattic owned 100% of the WordPress trademarks. Automattic's "Consideration" was to give all the non-commercial use of those trademarks to the WordPress Foundation.
Consider a simple, but apt analogy. You own a car. You decide to give someone else the right to drive your car on the weekends, however you retain the right to drive it during the week. Did you provide Consideration for the right to drive the car during the week? Of course - the recipient previously had nothing and you gave them the right to drive your car on the weekend. The only lack of Consideration here was that the person getting the weekend driving rights gave you nothing in exchange for those.
If I understand your comment correctly, you are saying that Automattic is still the owner of the WordPress trademarks, and granted licenses for non-commercial use to the WordPress Foundation?
What Automattic has is an exclusive license to use and sell the commercial licenses of the trademark.
>Automattic owned 100% of the WordPress trademarks. Automattic's "Consideration" was to give all the non-commercial use of those trademarks to the WordPress Foundation.
You also didn't address the other issues at all.
"an undertaking being conducted for a purpose other than making a profit"
…rather than…
"an organization that has been recognized by the Internal Revenue Service as being organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes as set forth in section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code."
Well, I guess this thread answers the question of “how can Matt’s lawyer possibly be encouraging this?”
Penny-wise and pound foolish.
I am not involved in the wordpress community in any shape or form but am fairly privy to what it is along with the open source world yet.. even I am finding it hard with confusing and/or conflating statements on what falls under the non-profit, foundation, commercial entity, etc.
But even if you ignore random stranger me from the internet, wouldn't it flag something in you that your own legal representative got it wrong on an official company post clarifying the structure? Even if I apply the most charitable interpretation, it seems Neil is also equally confused or at least not on the same page as you since he is unable to respond consistently in the other threads?
I am sure you will at least see why that everyone is just perplexed by how obtused the whole structure between the WordPress.org, WordPress The Foundation and Automattic.
https://wordpressfoundation.org/projects/
It’s ironic that you make analogies to “getting Al Capone” while you yourself appear to be engaged in a decade-long tax fraud. But like your constant allegations of “astroturfing by WPE” to explain why everybody holds you in contempt, I guess it’s easily explained as narcissistic projection.
It’s not astroturfing. Everybody can read you, Matt. And they don’t like what they see.
I feel like I've seen this entire song and dance routine before with the "Rails Foundation" — aka a cozy insiders club built to prop up DHH and his worldview. I find all of this stuff distasteful and not at all in keeping with the spirit of open source.
Also, an executive director never has control over the board - they serve the board.
But a major difference between the WP Foundation and Rails Foundation is that the Rails one appears to be a legitimate foundation, with real budget and activities, real governance and transparency provided by actual, living, involved, knowledgeable humans who have agency.
The Wordpress Foundation is a shell for trademark and tax fraud... It has no governance, transparency, or even seemingly any activities. And the TWO non-Matt directors are completely MIA, with one of them seemingly having no Wordpress affiliation while also working in Matt's much-maligned private equity industry (who also fund his own company!)
Also, the Rails Trademark is under exclusive, seemingly transparent license to the Rails Foundation.
Whereas the WP Trademark was ceremoniously "given" to the WP Foundation (controlled, in effect, exclusively by Matt) in 2010, and then secretly given right back to Matt the same day.
I know you personally own wordpress.org and not the foundation (as many people suspected) so this is unclear.
The Wordpress Foundation is a non-profit legal entity with a tiny budget. It appears the only thing it does is serve as a holding entity for the trademarks and the for-profit company than operates the WordCamp conferences.
I suspect that Automattic is the one who foots the bill for the infrastructure behind Wordpress.org, but that's not clear.
Matt talks about transparency, but how everything operates is a muddled mess.
Automattic's website (https://automattic.com/2024/10/02/wordpress-trademarks-a-leg...) says otherwise:
> The Foundation also licensed the name WordPress to the non-profit WordPress.org, which runs a website that facilitates access to WordPress-related software.
> The Foundation also licensed the name to the website WordPress.org, which facilitates widespread access to WordPress-related software at no charge.
He's far too used to just referring to, and treating, all these entities synonymously, and now that someone is pointing out all these glaring little admissions of exactly that, he is frantically trying to alter the record.
He's obviously paying close attention to HN, even when he's not on a posting binge making things worse. One can only imagine WP Engine's lawfirm is doing the same.
Thanks for your reply.