312 pointsby hackerBanana6 hours ago44 comments
  • toufka2 hours ago
    How much did Apple (via Google (via xAI (via SpaceX))) just crush their product?

    Seems an awful lot like Apple will commoditize the models that power Siri, and just “sherlocked” a trillion dollar private company.

    • BudaDude2 hours ago
      If you think Apple just sherlocked OpenAI, you havn't been paying attention to the pivot OpenAI has been doing for the last 7 months
      • dominotw2 hours ago
        whats the pivot? codex superapp?
    • wyager2 hours ago
      Apple has completely dropped the ball on every single detail of AI rollout for the last 5 years - why do you think they will suddenly stop now? My prior is that the new siri stuff is just as vaporware as the previous "apple intelligence" rollout
      • JumpCrisscross2 hours ago
        > Apple has completely dropped the ball

        Apple has sat out a capital-allocation shitshow. Its investors and likely customers are better off for their patience.

        • boringgan hour ago
          Jury is out on that one -- will have to see what happens in the next couple of years. I don't think you can say better off with full confidence right now. Very possible you could say that in the future..
          • JumpCrisscross31 minutes ago
            > will have to see what happens in the next couple of years. I don't think you can say better off with full confidence right now

            We can't say for confidence they'll find a niche in the AI world. But we can say they probably sat out some value-destroying capital investment. Like, I don't think Apple is going to wind up strategically worse off than Meta. But it won't have blown a metaverse on this.

      • s1artibartfast5 minutes ago
        Why would Apple even want to be a big player? They aren't major players in search or advertising, so it seems less likely to disrupt them if they sit it out. There are reasons why shareholders might want companies to stay out radically different Technologies unless they are at risk of losing their business model.

        It's not an existential risk to them unless they make it one by going all in.

  • cmiles8an hour ago
    Unless the picture and trajectory changes dramatically I don’t see OpenAI managing to pull off a successful IPO. If they do manage to go public it will likely only be at a fraction of what they’re worth now, with existing investors rushing for the exits to avoid completely losing their shirts.

    The revenue trajectory is now anemic, no clear sign of stopping the cash burn anytime soon, and all the liability associated with all things Sam Altman at this point. Frankly it’s a mess.

    In Warren Buffet’s Cinderella party scenario it’s 11:59 at the party and someone just found an accurate clock.

  • brikym4 hours ago
    Let me guess... wall street bets is going to pump $OPEN stock?
    • derwiki36 minutes ago
      That would make my portfolio’s day!
  • thallavajhula5 hours ago
    Elon is not going to be happy about this. He's been vocal about his dislike towards the business model OpenAI chose to run with.
    • nkozyra4 hours ago
      Elon wanted precisely the same model.
    • jorblumesea5 hours ago
      that's not the issue, Elon is just a petulant child that is losing the ai game ever since he left OAI. Elon wanted full control, and that dispute over control is the central issue.

      Elon is 100% a for profit person, it's just a 10 year rivalry between Sam and Elon.

      • thallavajhula4 hours ago
        And to top that, he lost the battle in the court recently.
  • ai_critic6 hours ago
    > We have not decided on timing yet; it may be a while because there are things we want to do that are likely easier as a private company.

    Presumably those things were harder as a charity/non-profit.

    • krona5 hours ago
      They need to financially engineer a good looking quarter beforehand.

      Perhaps Larry Ellison can cut them a nice quid pro quo for a few months to make OpenAI look profitable (like the SpaceX/Anthropic deal), although that's probably unlikely given the debt Oracle is taking on to build it's infra.

      • JumpCrisscross5 hours ago
        > like the SpaceX/Anthropic deal

        I understand the scepticism around Google's deal with SpaceX, given the former holds a stake in the latter. But Anthropic buying SpaceX's compute doesn't have any related-party smell to it. That genuinely looks like SpaceX having cornered some valuable compute.

        • krona5 hours ago
          I'm actually talking about both. WSJ publishes Anthropic artificial profitability. Days later the reason for the profitability appears in SpaceX S-1; it's compute costs were artificially suppressed. Both are going public. It's a quid pro quo.
          • JumpCrisscross4 hours ago
            > It's a quid pro quo

            This is a reasonable accusation! It doesn't make a lot of sense–the Journal article is worth a hell of lot more than SpaceX referencing Anthropic's profitability. And we have zero evidence for it–one could raise this accusation against any compute partner Anthropic were to buy from.

            • LearnYouALisp4 hours ago
              Reasonable or *un*reasonable?
              • JumpCrisscross4 hours ago
                > Reasonable or unreasonable?

                Reasonable. The influencers who just learned the term circular financing are mostly idiots. The ones pointing out the conflict of interest with Google are technically correct, but the conspiracy takes so many moving parts to yield such little gain that it would have to be particularly stupid in vision yet competent in execution to pull off.

                But asking if there is a quid pro quo between Anthropic and SpaceX? Like, there could be. We have no evidence of it. The S-1 mention doesn't make any sense. But they're both going public and if I were a journalist I'd look into it.

                The base case, that there is commercial value to xAI's datacenters that folks in the frontier-model space are competing to get access to, does seem to be one folks here are actively rejecting.

        • mceoin3 hours ago
          Google owns 14% of Anthropic.
          • 2 hours ago
            undefined
        • PunchyHamster4 hours ago
          > That genuinely looks like SpaceX having cornered some valuable compute.

          That's nice way to say "invested in AI that turned out to be flop nobody wants to pay for so they are selling spare capacity"

          • JumpCrisscross4 hours ago
            > That's nice way to say "invested in AI that turned out to be flop nobody wants to pay for so they are selling spare capacity"

            Both takes are true. xAI invested in capacity that was supposed to yield frontier-model-maker margins. Grok failed to generate enough interest. So now they're selling it.

            That's absolutely a good business, in a way that's more certain than the frontier-model one. But it's also lower margin, which doesn't support the sort of valuation SpaceX is going for.

            • bleepblap4 hours ago
              What I don't understand is how it's even a good low-margin business. Maybe I'm missing something but:

              Data centers (before recently) are low margin businesses because all the inputs are commodities: you buy power (joules), power (PDU), cooling hardware, physical racks, etc.. from the same vendors as everyone else. Worse, your biggest potential clients have the scale to just build it on their own and cut you out because of their scale and because you don't bring anything unique (outside of maybe physical proximity to an interesting market)

              xAI has all the same commodity inputs plus another huge upfront capital expense (GPU/storage/networking), and their customer base is exclusively the well-funded companies who would normally just build it on their own.

              I assume that they can't get better deals from nvidia than (e.g.) Microsoft because of their scale, so the unit cost of their inputs is the same or worse than their clients.

              So the whole game is hoping that they hope to charge more now because people can't build fast enough and try to recoup their upfront costs before either a) other capacity comes online and b) the installed hardware becomes obsolete.

              I'm being earnest -- it seems like they're trading one tiny margin service (datacenter) for another tiny margin service, with the added difficulty that there's an additional 10 figures of upfront expenditures and their viability depends solely on paying everything off before the price floor drops. Maybe it's staunching the bleeding, but it seems like not a great move

              • cco17 minutes ago
                You're not wrong in the long term, either in general or for SpaceX.

                In the long term, hopefully the market stabilizes, new entrants can challenge Nvidia etc. But of course maybe not!

                However for SpaceX, this is a dead end move. They made a good decision on buying this compute when they did but they failed to use it to create a compelling model.

                So they're selling access to recoup some of their investment (maybe a profit?). But what's the plan as these chips age out over the next three to five years? Become a compute company? They claim they want to... in space!

                Regardless, they bought some valuable chips, failed to use them, but can now sell access and recoup over the next few years before they become outdated.

              • JumpCrisscross2 hours ago
                > because all the inputs are commodities

                AI compute hardware is not a commodity. And in a shortage, commodities can command high margins.

                xAI has lots of NVIDIA GPUs and HBM. It also has permits and power hook-ups, both things that are getting harder to come by day by day in the U.S. Natural gas is a commodity. Doesn't make having lots of right now bad business.

                > the whole game is hoping that they hope to charge more now because people can't build fast enough and try to recoup their upfront costs before either a) other capacity comes online and b) the installed hardware becomes obsolete

                Correct. But charging people now generates incumbency advantages that make beating (a) and (b) easier. (From what I can tell, (b) isn't an existential issue, at least for xAI, because they've basically already recouped their investment with commited contracts they'd have to fuck up on to lose.)

                • bleepblap2 hours ago
                  > AI compute hardware is not a commodity. And in a shortage, commodities can command high margins.

                  I don't see the distinction you're drawing about "commodity", but I'm happy to be wrong on that. My point was that spaceX's ai division is buying all their inputs from external vendors and can't meaningfully differentiate themselves from person Y who buys all the same hardware except for the fact they bought them first. Which...

                  > Correct. But charging people now generates incumbency advantages

                  I don't see now this is an "incumbency advantage". There's nothing that sticks their clients to stay there and sign up for the next data center.

                  • JumpCrisscross2 hours ago
                    > don't see the distinction you're drawing about "commodity"

                    People pay markedly more for NVIDIA GPUs than they do for others. That opposes the fungibility requirement of a commodity.

                    • bleepblapan hour ago
                      In the west, there's no actual competitor to NVIDIA hardware. Yes, people make other chips, but nothing is a serious drop-in replacement for the nv stack. Between the networking and software, they're truly a different "thing" of accelerator, and I don't consider them fungible at all. The US government tried to build 3 supercomputers with each of nvidia/amd/intel accelerators and you can see how it went
                      • JumpCrisscross37 minutes ago
                        > there's no actual competitor to NVIDIA hardware...I don't consider them fungible at all

                        Which is why nobody should claim NVIDIA makes a commodity.

              • redox993 hours ago
                It's like buying a ticket for a concert, realizing you can't go and that you can resell it for more than what you paid.

                You're right that long term it should stabilize into a low margin business.

                Elon is also much less risk averse than others, which helps to build stuff fast, possibly cheaper, pushing legality to the limit. Colossus was definitely built much faster than anything else. I think building datacenters suits him better than a pure software play, where "move fast break things" is already the norm.

                • bleepblap2 hours ago
                  The concert analogy makes sense (I analogized it as "staunching the bleeding").

                  WRT SpaceX building data centers: I think there's a natural tension between a "low margin business" and "being risk adverse". SpaceX (the rocket business) did well because it was high risk and high reward. Building a 10b datacenter to hope to get a slice of a low-margin industry is high risk and low reward and just seems fundamentally like a losing strategy.

                  • redox992 hours ago
                    It's not like Elon is a stranger to low margin. Making cars is low margin, and it's not like SpaceX has crazy margins now that we know the financials.

                    Also I think stuff like Hetzner is a commodity. But are gigawatt scale data centers a commodity? You need those for AI training.

                    Anyways their goal is datacenters in space, not traditional data centers. Although I think that's only viable for inference.

              • bee_rider3 hours ago
                I wonder if they do have non-commodity AI capabilities, just, ones that don’t translate into a world-class frontier model.

                Like they might have hired really good AI infra folks, gotten really good uptimes on their nodes, gotten folks who really know how to configure Infiniband (or whatever). But then, didn’t find the folks who knew what to run on that infrastructure. Or maybe Grok just had too much political drama around it.

                • bleepblap2 hours ago
                  Maybe they have something else im the books, I truly have no idea. But once you get down from the top rung of full-bandwidth cross section networking at the 100k node networking scale "AI" infra, theres no shortage of people who can do that. Most importantly, labor isn't the big chunk of the outlay. Even if they have 50 engineers clearing $1m/yr, that's pocket change for everything else

                  EDIT: said 50 engineers at $50m/yr originally and meant 50 @ $1m/yr

            • lumost2 hours ago
              Why do we think frontier model vendors are high margin?
        • SecretDreams5 hours ago
          Google owns 14% Anthropic and 6% xAI.

          When Anthropic spends on xAI, it benefits Google. When google spends on xAI, it benefits Google. When xAI spends on Google, believe it or not, that benefits Google.

          This is how a Ponzi -style circular financing scheme typically works.

          • JumpCrisscross5 hours ago
            > When Anthropic spends on xAI, it benefits Google

            Unless Google is directing these transactions, this is not a novel issue. (We see a similar effect with mutual funds owning most companies [1]. It's a weak effect.)

            > This is how a Ponzi -style circular financing scheme typically works

            No. It's potential conflicts of interest. It's not circular financing. Circular financing follows the cash. When NVIDIA invests in OpenAI so OpenAI can buy NVIDIA chips, that is circular financing.

            [1] https://insights.som.yale.edu/insights/the-rise-of-the-mutua...

            • SecretDreams4 hours ago
              I think it depends on how you view the payout google will get when these companies IPO and give Google exist liquidity and a nicer looking balance sheet, if needed, either or.
              • JumpCrisscross4 hours ago
                > it depends on how you view the payout google will get when these companies IPO and give Google exist liquidity and a nicer looking balance sheet

                Google has a fantastic balance sheet with or without these investments. None of the recent deals have uniquely enabled an IPO. So they'd be playing to increase their stakes' value by a few points ahead of a dump, a dump that would almost certainly wipe out much more than they'd stand to gain by trying to make someone else a dollar so they get nickels and dimes out of it.

          • 4 hours ago
            undefined
          • thundergolfer4 hours ago
            No a Ponzi scheme involves not output, but here there is very much output in the inference being sold by Anthropic. Pretty big difference.
        • dualvariable4 hours ago
          If you were to treat all the hyperscalars as one company with one 10-K then Anthropic buying compute from SpaceX/xAI is an internal bookkeeping transfer between two departments. It isn't the same as top-line revenue into the AI companies. It is still mostly just financing money that Anthropic raised being transferred to SpaceX.
          • JumpCrisscross4 hours ago
            > If you were to treat all the hyperscalars as one company with one 10-K then Anthropic buying compute from SpaceX/xAI is an internal bookkeeping transfer between two departments

            This is literally true for any revenue. Treat the buyer and seller as a single company and their transaction is internal.

            • dualvariablean hour ago
              Because it is hiding the fact that there's very little external revenue coming into the AI sector compared to the costs. AI companies doing business with each other isn't net revenue into the sector. Treating the whole sector as a single entity isn't arbitrary.
      • anukin5 hours ago
        You are forgetting the google space x deal too
        • 5 hours ago
          undefined
      • 5 hours ago
        undefined
      • reactordev4 hours ago
        You mean Oracle’s customers will face when their renewal bill includes infrastructure fees.
      • taneq5 hours ago
        Just depreciate their server farms less this year to reduce losses. ;)
      • tsunamifury5 hours ago
        you mean the 50% of its company that was leveraged to purchase Paramount?
      • Eji17005 hours ago
        > They need to financially engineer a good looking quarter beforehand.

        Eh given the quality of recent IPO proposals I think they can just say there's a couple zillion air molecules to turn into gold and be done with it.

      • SilverElfin5 hours ago
        Anthropic basically did that by getting two months of free compute from SpaceX. As I recall, this is how they were able to claim that they were profitable. But in reality, they are only profitable for those two months.
    • edoceo5 hours ago
      Like financial reporting and "transparency" that's required for public companies.
    • AtlasBarfed4 hours ago
      Capital is going to dry up. All the AI companies are racing to get to market before the dumb money disappears
  • pseudosavant35 minutes ago
    It is increasingly look like OpenAI, Anthropic, and SpaceX (xAI) are going to burst their own AI bubble by going public. Their businesses aren't ready for that kind of quarter-by-quarter grinding scrutiny. It is going to be bad when their lockup periods end.
  • kylecazar5 hours ago
    What a weird tone this is written in.
    • sigmar5 hours ago
      I think it is intended to sound like Sam Altman. Would look exactly like a tweet of his if it didn't have capitalized characters.
  • stinger5 hours ago
    This is like a slack message
    • shepherdjerred3 hours ago
      I wish all announcements were this terse and candid
    • stuxnet794 hours ago
      A very unserious tone from probably the most consequential company of our lifetimes. It's vibing all the way to the top I guess.
      • gordonhart4 hours ago
        I prefer this tone to fake marketing speak. If they’d done a proper job here they’d be accused of having GPT write it. At least this is organic laziness!
        • Nicholas_C3 hours ago
          Their tone is just as fake as typical fake marketing speak - they are trying to come off as nonchalant. I bet this announcement was wordsmithed to hell.
          • stuxnet792 hours ago
            Only thing missing from this comms masterpiece was all lowercase.
        • aiisascam3 hours ago
          [dead]
  • 4 hours ago
    undefined
  • lnrd5 hours ago
    What was that Warren Buffett's quote about everyone trying to leave the party seconds before midnight in a room where there are no clocks? I think it was at peak of the dot com bubble
    • n42an hour ago
      I looked it up:

        The line separating investment and speculation, which is never bright and clear, becomes blurred still further when most market participants have recently enjoyed triumphs. Nothing sedates rationality like large doses of effortless money. After a heady experience of that kind, normally sensible people drift into behavior akin to that of Cinderella at the ball. They know that overstaying the festivities — that is, continuing to speculate in companies that have gigantic valuations relative to the cash they are likely to generate in the future — will eventually bring on pumpkins and mice. But they nevertheless hate to miss a single minute of what is one helluva party. Therefore, the giddy participants all plan to leave just seconds before midnight. There’s a problem, though: They are dancing in a room in which the clocks have no hands.
      • recursivecaveat18 minutes ago
        Letter dated Feb 28th 2000, NASDAQ would hit the peak of the bubble March 10th.
      • matheusmoreira29 minutes ago
        We all want to sell the top and buy the bottom.
  • thedogeye4 hours ago
    I thought this was about the college football conference for a second.
  • bpt36 hours ago
    I'm just anticipating the next version of “Community-based EBITDA" that sama rolls out in the latest attempt to convince everyone that spending >$1 to earn $1 is a good idea.
  • chakintosh4 hours ago
    I have a feeling that as soon as OpenAI and Anthropic stocks are up for grabs, the market will implode.
    • zulban3 hours ago
      Maybe lay down some concrete numbers and timelines, hold yourself accountable, otherwise you risk confirmation bias with your predictions like millions before you.
      • sc68cal2 hours ago
        "Markets can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent."
    • andsoitis4 hours ago
      > the market

      Which market? The stock market? Or the tech stocks? Or something else?

      • baby_souffle3 hours ago
        > Which market? The stock market? Or the tech stocks?

        Both.

        Across the entire stock market, not a ton of bright spots _except_ for Tech.

        Take a look here: https://finviz.com/map?t=sec_all&st=w52

      • system23 hours ago
        Then someone says the market; they definitely mean the stock market. I don't know what else you can understand from it.
    • levocardia3 hours ago
      So are you short the market?
    • lbrito4 hours ago
      Same. Glad I'm not alone.
    • dwa35924 hours ago
      implode as in? to the moon or crash into bits and pieces?
      • Groxx2 hours ago
        Implode generally implies shrinking/collapsing, so while explode is kinda ambiguous, I think this is fairly clearly saying "bubble will pop".
    • 3 hours ago
      undefined
    • inatreecrown24 hours ago
      yep, same here.
    • brazukadev4 hours ago
      I think that might not even happen depending on how SpaceX IPO goes.
  • ortusdux6 hours ago
    I wonder how much of it is photos?
  • cloudengineer945 hours ago
    Here we go… Let’s see if retail investors are indeed exit liquidity or not
    • dofm5 hours ago
      Or just… Americans:

      https://www.notus.org/technology/trump-blindsided-ai-compani...

      OpenAI CEO Sam Altman pitched the idea of turning over shares in his company to Trump in early 2025 and discussed the matter again with senior officials in recent weeks

    • anukin5 hours ago
      Pretty much is, at this point. Spcx is oversubscribed.
      • cj4 hours ago
        Source
    • deadbabe5 hours ago
      You’re always someone’s exit liquidity.
  • voganmother424 hours ago
    Good thing they bought that podcast…
  • zuzululu4 hours ago
    so who is buying at the open? anthropic, spacex, openai

    i think that we are going to see another leg up but this is gonna be it for a while

    • stingraycharles4 hours ago
      From what I understand, SpaceX has been engineered such that all kinds of passive investment funds (pension funds, ETFs) will buy into it at their first rebalancing, and as such it should get a decent amount of volume after open.

      Having said that, it’s the company I have least faith in due to the recent acquisition of xAI / Twitter.

      • JumpCrisscross4 hours ago
        > SpaceX has been engineered such that all kinds of passive investment funds (pension funds, ETFs) will buy into it

        Pension funds are rarely passively run. They tend to be sophisticated investors. For example, several pension funds are already investors in SpaceX.

        NASDAQ 100 will include SpaceX after a couple weeks. But it's a tech fund. It's strange to complain about buying the largest tech company in a tech fund. Similarly, S&P total market and Russell total market will buy early. But again, those are total-market funds. If you want to actively manage your portfolio, don't buy total-market funds.

      • blourvim4 hours ago
        I heard that the rule changes which would allow SpaceX to be auto bought by those funds has been blocked, previous stock seasoning rules will apply
        • JumpCrisscross4 hours ago
          > the rule changes which would allow SpaceX to be auto bought by those funds has been blocked

          Nothing was blocked. S&P 500 never adopted them. Influencers misunderstood what a consultation document is and presented a question as a fait accompli.

          NASDAQ 100 changed its rules, as did S&P and Russell's total-market funds. But for NASDAQ 100 I'm going to go ahead and say this was a brilliant market move, since nobody ever talked about that index before this.

          • siren20262 hours ago
            > But for NASDAQ 100 I'm going to go ahead and say this was a brilliant market move, since nobody ever talked about that index before this.

            Most people know the NASDAQ100 as its ticker QQQ. Also known as the high risk - high reward investment.

            After reading how Nasdaq changed the rules in order to court all the mega IPOs to list with them, I will never ever consider a Nasdaq fund again. The rule change about the available float is especially shocking.

            • JumpCrisscross2 hours ago
              > After reading how Nasdaq changed the rules in order to court all the mega IPOs to list with them, I will never ever consider a Nasdaq fund again

              We have zero evidence for that chain of causation. And we have zero evidence of significant outflows for NASDAQ 100 since this rule change. (There is early evidence of inflows, but I suspect that's just because nobody talked about the NASDAQ 100 before and this turned out to be a brilliant marketing move.)

              • siren20262 hours ago
                I agree with you that this might be a good marketing move overall.

                And I don't really care about the chain of causation. The change of rules for the available float and the fact those funds will buy based on the market cap and not the float makes it a completely irresponsible investment at this point.

                • JumpCrisscross2 hours ago
                  > fact those funds will buy based on the market cap and not the float makes it a completely irresponsible investment at this point

                  It's an index. The conventional way to market weight is to use market cap. The float rules are mostly for technical reasons around transaction costs for very large indices. There is a theoretical argument for float weighting, inasmuch as if you bought the stock market you'd be buying the float, not all of all of the companies. But I haven't seen research to say one way is definitively better than the other.

                  I agree they should have probably paired the float-rule change with a gradual onramp. But again, NASDAQ 100 isn't big enough to really need to care about this. (Half a trillion is obviously a lot of money. But not relative to the equity markets, and not when spread across a hundred of the largest names.)

                  • siren20262 hours ago
                    > It's an index. The conventional way to market weight is to use market cap. The float rules are mostly for technical reasons around transaction costs for very large indices.

                    No the float rule is to avoid having to buy so much stock compared to the available stock that it would create irrational prices. This is probably going to happen with those IPOs. It's pure offer and demand!

                    To put it differently: Imagine a company is valued at 100B$ but only released 1% of its stock for sale (1B$). The NASDAQ100 includes it in its index based on the market cap only and because of that now needs to own about 100m$ of that stock. You are now trying to buy 100m$ out of only 1B$ available stocks. Prices are going to skyrocket artificially. If it was weighted on the float, it would only have been required to buy 1m$, which would make way more sense.

                    And an index can be whatever the company behind it wants it to be. The SP500 can decide absolutely whatever they want and every index fund will just have to agree and comply and buy based on those decisions.

                    But as everything if they do something stupid they lose credibility and customers. This is one of those instances in which they changed the rules in a way that made no clear sense and they will be remembered for that.

                    • JumpCrisscrossan hour ago
                      > No the float rule is to avoid having to buy so much stock compared to the available stock that it would create irrational prices

                      Correct.

                      > this is probably going to happen with those IPOs

                      Not due to any index-following investor.

                      > SP500 can decide absolutely whatever they want

                      Yup, S&P 500 is a committee-based index.

                      > one of those instances in which they changed the rules in a way that made no clear sense and they will be remembered for that

                      S&P never changed the S&P 500's rules.

                      NASDAQ 100 did. But from what I can tell, that was a brilliant piece of marketing. Nobody talked about them before. (QQQQ doesn't appear to have gained or lost net assets in that time, which isn't unexpected, it's a volatile fund.)

          • kasey_junk4 hours ago
            Crsp changed as well.
            • JumpCrisscross4 hours ago
              > Crsp changed as well

              Yes. For their total-market fund. That makes sense. (CRSP is probably the most-significant index to make the change. But even then, it won't be a significant source of demand. Total market means lots of components.)

      • dakolli4 hours ago
        S&P is no longer allowing this, only the NASDAQ. I think the bigger risk would be if they were included in the S&P 100/500. There was too much backlash.

        These capitalists are taking advantage of the corrupt administration in charge at the moment (not that a blue admin would be that much better), but they can get away with almost everything at the moment. Keep your head on a swivel, the billionaire class knows they don't have to worry about going to jail for the next few years and they'll make sure to screw everyone they possibly can to satisfy their endless greed.

        Death to the fascist insect that feeds on the blood of the people.

        • JumpCrisscross4 hours ago
          > There was too much backlash

          There wasn't. A consultation was rejected. It happens all the time. If S&P management had a say, they would have wanted SpaceX included.

  • moralestapia3 hours ago
    [meta, off-topic but relevant]

    Maybe the solution to s..tposters is to do what Wikipedia does.

    Some articles/topics are "protected" and new/unverified accounts cannot touch them.

  • jordemort5 hours ago
    I have instructed my financial advisor to keep my exposure to the upcoming wave of AI IPOs as close to zero as possible.
    • shermantanktop5 hours ago
      So...all cash?
      • zerobees2 hours ago
        Given that the US govt is reportedly talking to OpenAI about taking a stake, your only choice might be Zimbabwean dollars.
      • system23 hours ago
        I'd assume healthcare would be the answer.
  • throw031720195 hours ago
    Was this meant as an internal team post?
  • sciencejerk5 hours ago
    When/how are IPO dates released?
    • JumpCrisscross4 hours ago
      > When/how are IPO dates released?

      Once the SEC declares a registration statement "effective," the company is subject to the Exchange Act's reporting requirements. Theoretically one can do this and not list one's shares. That's dumb, so nobody does it.

      In practice, we'll get a couple weeks to possibly days ahead of the listing. That process is partly governed by the SEC accepting the company's S-1. It's mostly down to negotiations between the company, its underwriters and IPO investors.

  • jansan4 hours ago
    Starting the first three sentences with "We" does not pass the Voigh-Kampff / "I am not a robot" test.
  • guluarte6 hours ago
    "Hey, don't invest too much in Spacex or Anthropic. We're planning an IPO too."
    • winfredJa5 hours ago
      This is the real reason. I don't think equity market has enough capital to support three companies of this size.
      • vessenes5 hours ago
        SpaceX IPO is slated to be $75-80bn — the market has size for that. We also have seen robust options and finance markets for AAPL and NVDA over the last years that make the broader ecosystem not overly worrying in my armchair opinion.

        I’m not clear how much crossover demand there is between SX and Anthropic/oAI — that seems like the more interesting question. I’m guessing if we had Anthropic/oAI launching at the same time we’d see some pretty interesting capital dynamics.

        • fc417fc8025 hours ago
          > if we had Anthropic/oAI launching at the same time

          Don't we have exactly that? There are S-1 announcements for SpaceX, Anthropic, and OpenAI. Google is selling to raise money for infra (IIRC). There's an absurd amount of money flowing in at present (prospectively at least).

        • HDBaseT4 hours ago
          I was under the impression SpaceX was going to be a trillion dollar company.

          The media and market is hyping these three companies up to be all trillion dollar companies.

          • panopticon3 hours ago
            Afaik SpaceX is only putting 5% of its shares up on the public market when it IPOs (newly minted shares, diluting the existing private shareholders).

            So the markets only "need to absorb" $75B when SpaceX IPOs, not its whole $1.7T valuation. At least until the lockup period expires.

        • XorNot5 hours ago
          None of these companies are worth the numbers being tossed around, but SpaceX especially so.

          Its Schrodinger's IPO: the space business is so successful how could you question the company's worth? You can't afford to miss out on the next biggest AI business to invest in!

          What's going to happen is the music will stop and it's just a question of who cashed in when it does. OpenAI are easily the most vulnerable here.

  • to11mtm3 hours ago
    The timing of all of these IPOs has a smell similar to both the US Mortgage company trend shortly before interest rates spiked and all those companies started shedding jobs progressively since, and/or the DotCom IPO boom.

    Where we land remains to be seen.

    • gekoxyz3 hours ago
      While I agree on the smell I think that the situations are really different. I am not an economist but I think that other than the situation of the huge amount of money in play we are in a really different case. The general user (and I have noticed it especially with today's WWDC) basically doesn't get any benefit from AI (neither LLMs, image generation or photo editing). They were promised living like in Wall-e in 5 years and they are basically still living the same life. White collar jobs slightly benefited from the LLMs and same with programmers (while many say that they can get huge leverage the public results of what software companies produce didn't get the same benefit). Everyone knows the market will crash, nobody knows how much.
      • base6983 hours ago
        My father in law owns a small manufacturing business and is not technical at all. His computer skills stop with some CAD and basic excel. He pays for ChatGPT as does his wife and her kids. The internet and dot com bubble didn't have millions and millions of non technical users paying cash for a product. Almost every coffee shop I go to has people talking about AI and ChatGPT even in areas with no tech populations.

        I still think it could crash, but it's got real users and a mind share like nothing I've ever seen.

        • jrmg3 hours ago
          The internet and dot com bubble didn't have millions and millions of non technical users paying cash for a product

          The dot com bubble was basically based on regular people buying computers and internet service, and then using them to buy products they used to buy in stores.

        • mmcwilliams3 hours ago
          This seems to ignore the fact that millions of non-technical people did pay cash for a product: AOL. And in fact the AOL buyout of Time Warner coincided almost exactly with burst of the dot com boom.
          • JumpCrisscross2 hours ago
            > the AOL buyout of Time Warner

            To be clear, there is a world of difference between IPOs and LBOs. In the risk they create. And in the risk they signal.

        • LargeWu2 hours ago
          These companies are never, ever going to make their money back off of retail customers. It's not even clear if those customers would be profitable at all, let alone enough to justify hundreds of billions in capital expenditures.
        • 100ms2 hours ago
          The question in my mind is persistence. Everyone goes through the honeymoon phase. I'm absolutely loathing the idea that phones are arriving soon with chatbot junk built deeply into it, enough that the thought is more what if I could maybe just stop using my phone so much. I threw myself at the Llama WhatsApp integration when I first got it, now the idea of having Llama in WhatsApp just feels so dumb.

          I was a huge early fan of ChatGPT voice too, but I don't think I've used voice mode anywhere in at least 6 months. The question is what is the right level people are generally going to settle on for the use of these tools in the long term. 80% of my usage isn't much more than a better Google, I could live without it and I could live with cheaper options. I'm not sure the consumer money is going to be there en masse as hoped

          Of course it still leaves a huge amount of business cases open, but I suppose the same principle applies. How soon will people tire of talking to robo-voice when they call their bank? etc.

        • Waterluvian3 hours ago
          I definitely believe in the broad existence of people like your father in law. What I’m not sure about is how many of them would keep paying if their subscriptions were priced profitably.
      • hypendev2 hours ago
        I wouldn't argue the same.

        My parents love using ChatGPT, asking it all kinds of questions. My mom discovered Claude and helps her immensely with her job - where she would have to take it home and work a few hours to be able to finish the tasks on her computer, as her company that still uses Office 98, now Claude does it in 5 minutes.

        They fixed so many random issues using it, it is insane. My dad had a bike issue which would otherwise be solved by either trying to find obscure manuals from 20 years ago on random forums with me translating it from english to our language, or by taking it to a mechanic which could take months. This way, he just snapped a few photos, said what the problem is, and in a few minutes he had the fix.

        I've built software that uses LLM's for a specific usecase - besides general adoption, professionals in the field contacted me and thanked me for making their lives easier, as the tasks would often take a lot of manual work. These people are earning way more from using my software, than I am from their subscriptions, which is still about 20x more than my API costs are.

        While most non-dev people are behind the curve, the impact it has on their lives is becoming bigger and bigger by the day.

        • gekoxyz2 hours ago
          Maybe I downplayed it too much but I really think this is still "in distribution" (we always have to remember that we are tech savy people and we influence the people that surround us). I see the value, but in my opinion it's not a generational opportunity, but a great acceleration. We are treating it like generational opportunity. That's why I say "everyone know there will be a crash, but noone knows how big that will be". The AI industry is not (in my opinion obviously) worth $ 391B [1] of added value.

          [1] https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry-analysis/artifici...

        • magarnicle2 hours ago
          Office 98
      • jghn3 hours ago
        > I think that the situations are really different

        Keep in mind that people said this before both of those crashes.That's the problem with bubbles. It's impossible to say if this time really IS different.

      • charcircuit3 hours ago
        There is ton of utility. I use it all the time to study, to look up what's happening in the world, to understand the context behind what others are saying, cooking recipes, and much more. Considering LLMs have access to tools for searching the internet they have a superset of the capabilities of Google and consumers got a lot of value from Google. In fact from putting ads on the search results Google has made billions of dollars from such consumers getting value from their service.
        • Eufrat3 hours ago
          When you ask it to give you a digest of current events or as a study aid how are you ensuring that what your reading is a valid representation of the source material? Has it never given you false information?
          • thimabian hour ago
            Not OP but, anyway, AI output should be treated like any other source material.

            I study from reputable sources every day and never cease to be amazed by how many errors or misconceptions they have. Peer-reviewed articles, books from renowned scholars, news from major publications… regardless of the source, false information and contradictions accumulate. I’d wager that AI, besides helping me uncover these issues in the literature, has had a lower error rate than most of the materials that I read on a daily basis.

    • siren20262 hours ago
      Ben Felix got a great video on this subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOyFja87uyw

      The point he makes is that companies go public when they think they can get the maximum our of their shares on the retail market. Which make sense I guess.

      But the fact that the 3 of them are hitting the public market at the same time means they all came to the conclusion that now is the perfect time to unload those shares. Probably because they know there is a high chance of a big crash coming after.

      I will not touch those IPOs with a 10 feet long pole. But unfortunately a lot of people are about to get burned.

      My prediction is that this is what will be remembered as the last bit of exuberance before everything starts to unravel.

      Books will be written about how insiders will be profiting millions by unloading those shares to the greatest fools and middle class america.

      • JumpCrisscross2 hours ago
        > point he makes is that companies go public when they think they can get the maximum our of their shares on the retail market

        I think this is what's going on right now. But there are a variety of reasons that can drive IPO timing. Need for cash and owners needing liquidity being chief among them.

        I'd also say that post-Covid, retail has become a commanding section of the American equity markets in a way I don't think they've been in my lifetime. As a result, every IPO from now on will have to target retail.

        • siren20262 hours ago
          Both OpenAI and Anthropic were able to raise astronomical amount of cash on the private markets just weeks ago. I don't think that's what's driving them.

          I really think what is driving this is the need for insiders, employees, early investors to be able to sell their stock at scale before the music stops.

          And You can only do that through a full IPO. All those companies had private secondary transaction but none of them were big enough to transfer the Trillions of $ required for the insiders to unload their bags.

          • JumpCrisscross2 hours ago
            > what is driving this is the need for insiders, employees, early investors to be able to sell their stock at scale before the music stops

            How would you differentiate insiders needing to sell versus insiders needing to dump before a crash?

            I remember when Uber and Airbnb and WeWork went public in quick succession. There were similar claims. WeWork never made it public. And Uber and Airbnb's IPO investors made of fantastically.

            • siren20262 hours ago
              > How would you differentiate insiders needing to sell versus insiders needing to dump before a crash?

              To answer this, just ask yourself how many of the insiders would have bought the stock at current IPO's price? Most insiders would probably never touch those stocks at this price. I know a couple people at OpenAI and Anthropic that are very clearly selling everything they can as soon as they can.

              This is all a carefully orchestrated PR game that is relying on retail to be the ultimate fool. I guess to some level every IPO is like that (A PR game to hype the company).

              But never before had we 3 mega IPOs happening at almost the exact same time with so much money to unload on retails with dubious ways to force funds to gobble them.

              Most IPOs end up negative after the first few quarters (at least compared to the SP500). When we are talking about a 20B$ company it matters less than 5T$ being suddenly fully unloaded on the public.

              > And Uber and Airbnb's IPO investors made of fantastically.

              Did they? https://www.alphaspread.com/comparison/nasdaq/abnb/vs/indx/g...

              The only way they might have is by getting the shares at the actual IPO price, and even then it's around the same as the SP500 return since then.

              • s1artibartfast31 minutes ago
                Is it bad for insiders to want out? Is it bad for owners to sell when they think it is overpriced?

                I think this is extremely common, if not necessary, part of a functioning market and price discovery. It happens with not just IPOs but also secondary offerings.

                Some of this seems like dumb retail wanting to toughtlessly buy without consideration of risk.

              • JumpCrisscross2 hours ago
                > couple people at OpenAI and Anthropic that are very clearly selling everything they can as soon as they can

                If you are serious about this for Anthropic please drop me a line. (Not OpenAI.)

                > never before had we 3 mega IPOs happening at almost the exact same time

                Uber (May 2019), Airbnb (December 2020) and WeWork (scheduled 2019, SPAC 2021) were pretty closely bunched. And they were big for their time. Keep in mind that the money supply has expanded since then.

                > Most IPOs end up negative after the first few quarters

                Source?

                • siren2026an hour ago
                  > Source?

                  There is an actual ETF tracking IPOs: https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/IPO/

                  • JumpCrisscrossan hour ago
                    > There is an actual ETF tracking IPOs

                    Renaissance's IPO index seeks to "capture the essence of IPO activity and performance of newly public companies" [1]. It does not replicate an actual IPO investor's returns.

                    For example, it adds new issues approximately quarterly and never earlier than 5 days from IPO. This is important since it misses the pop. Mean (median) first-day returns on IPOs are 20% (7%) [2]. The average 3-year buy-and-hold return for all IPO investors 1980 to 2025 was 19.1%. Less than broad-market indices (though that margin shrinks for $1bn+ sales IPOs). But certainly not negative.

                    (Uber and Airbnb reflect this trend. Up since IPO. But, as you observe, below the S&P 500's returns even before taking into account total returns.)

                    [1] https://www.lseg.com/content/dam/ftse-russell/en_us/document...

                    [2] https://site.warrington.ufl.edu/ritter/files/IPO-Statistics.... 1980 to 2025; 30% (14%) for 2025

      • teaearlgraycold2 hours ago
        I’m also staying away. I need to not lose money more than I need to gain money.
    • HerbManic2 hours ago
      One of the stranger theories I have seen is that it is based on Astrology as there is a confluence of Uranus squaring the lunar nodes... whatever that means. There is a saying supposedly attributed to JP Morgan (but not likely) "Millionaires don't use astrology but Billionaires do."

      One of the more rational ideas I have seen of any kind of divination is that it provides a means of passing judgement over to a near seemingly random system. If you are reading tea leaves, doing an 'I Ching' divination, biobliomancy etc. that essentially provides a coin flip to make you go 'yes' or 'no' to an opportunity.

    • jtolmar3 hours ago
      There was a similar wave of IPOs with Uber and AirB&B, not tied to a bubble popping.

      (I mean, I think this looks incredibly like a bubble too, but for completeness sake, that's the counterexample I can think of.)

    • ai-x3 hours ago
      The content of all these comments has a smell similar to 2023 when NVDA had a spectacular run and HN was absolutely sure that AI is a bubble.

      It's also similar to 2024 when HN was sure that AI is a bubble.

      Similar to 2025 when HN commentators were sure that AI is a bubble.

      1000% gains later, HN will continue to identify patterns of 2000/2008 and are absolutely convinced it is a bubble

      Note: If a company gains 1000% and loses 50%, you can't claim you were right.

      Both OpenAI and Anthropic have already gained 1000% since 2023 (In Anthropic's case almost 10,000%)

      • awwaiid2 hours ago
        Yes, many companies going out of business altogether, some of them large, is what a bubble pop would look like. As opposed to a uh.... Correction.
        • ai-xan hour ago
          The ARR of OpenAI + Anthropic > $85B greater than McDonalds, Netflix, Starbucks, Google Cloud, CocaCola, and 1000 other iconic firms around the world.

          If I wanted blind pattern matching comments of dot-com bubble, I can just ask LLMs of 2023 like ChatGPT 3.5

      • siren20262 hours ago
        Depending on how much that bubble will pop, all of those above might still be very right.

        We could very well go back to the 2021 valuations.

    • xyst3 hours ago
      Got to payout the investors before the burst
  • SwellJoe4 hours ago
    The cheap money for subsidizing tokens has begun to run out. Not all gone, yet, but it's getting harder to pretend the chatbots are cost-effective to run. Soon, they're going to need to tap a larger pool for money: Everyone's retirement accounts.
    • mgraczyk4 hours ago
      The numbers are public now, this is obviously false
      • SwellJoe4 hours ago
        Which public numbers are you referring to that contradict what I said?
      • paustint2 hours ago
        If SpaceX, OpenAI, and Anthropic get fast tracked to be on NASDAQ or S&P 500 then they are required to be included in index funds which will be automatically included in retirement accounts and that will give investors an exit.

        https://youtu.be/yhRjvX_t4hc?si=N-a-s_5ttWKfVeJZ

        • JumpCrisscross2 hours ago
          > If SpaceX, OpenAI, and Anthropic get fast tracked to be on NASDAQ or S&P 500

          S&P 500 said no. NASDAQ 100 is a tiny tech index. The retirement conspiracy could have been a thing, and its effect isn't zero, but oh my god was it overblown by the influencer crowd.

          • applfanboysbgonan hour ago
            "Nothing happened on Y2K, everyone was overreacting"
            • JumpCrisscrossan hour ago
              The notion that S&P's committee took online chatter into account is silly beyond explanation. If anything, S&P management would have put their fingers on the scale to include these new issues.
        • siren20262 hours ago
          yes it will keep the grift going for a couple months due to the index artificial demand. Actually, SpaceX timed the unlocking of their shares to the timeline index funds will have to buy.

          Guess who will hold the bag when it's all going downhill?

  • XCSme6 hours ago
    > We recently submitted a confidential S-1. We expect it to leak so we’re just announcing it.

    What?

    • hmokiguess6 hours ago
      Narcissist marketing, Sam loves it.
      • 5 hours ago
        undefined
    • SilverElfin6 hours ago
      They expect someone to leak that they had submitted it, so they’re just saying it themselves. I don’t think they mean that the actual contents (like financial projections and all that) will be leaked.
    • energy1235 hours ago
      [dead]
  • rvz6 hours ago
    This is the true definition of AGI and will be achieved this year.

    The I in AGI has always stood for IPO.

    • hmokiguess6 hours ago
      Altman Gets his IPO
    • root-parent5 hours ago
      Well if you reverse OpenAI ... the first letter is I and the last two are P O...
    • onlyrealcuzzo5 hours ago
      Artificially Generated Internal-rate-of-Return
  • 6 hours ago
    undefined
  • fHr4 hours ago
    codex is great
  • system23 hours ago
    What a shitty company, and this shitty announcement proves they are going to be shittier after the IPO.
  • shimman6 hours ago
    Growing worry I have are the dozens of newly minted corporate elites that will continue to wreck havoc on the tech industry mandating their golden paths while America still lacks medicare for all, college for all, and universal childcare.

    If you think Sam Altman is bad for the industry, imagine what 200 of him will be like!

    • dofm5 hours ago
      I was wondering about this the other week.

      Is there a chart, somewhere, like a family tree, of what the Apple and Microsoft stock "ordinary millionaires" went on to do?

      • thin_carapace4 hours ago
        we need more non tech women to marry and divorce craven tech men so that at least half of these scrooge like fortunes can get donated

        edit: id love to tally all the donations done by techies and compare them to how much of bezos fortune has ended up routed to charity via his ex

        • HDBaseT4 hours ago
          If you're a tech billionaire, you don't marry unless you are incredibly stupid.

          Altman and Thiel are also gay, so theres that too.

          • dofm4 hours ago
            No idea where this comes from; I wasn't talking about a literal family tree but a figurative one (I grew up with Rock Family Trees)

            Also: Altman is married.

            • thin_carapace3 hours ago
              i think i was trying to make the point that the type of person to make a shitload of money tends to be the type of person to hold onto a shitload of money
          • abuani4 hours ago
            ... Being gay does not limit altman or theil from getting married...

            And last I checked, plenty of tech billionaires are married and by no stretch of the imagination stupid.

    • philipallstar5 hours ago
      We had universal childcare until we converted single-income families into dual-income families in order to make the boomers who they bought houses from rich.
      • 0xWTF5 hours ago
        Women want their own income stream because of the innumerable ways men get into trouble. If her man gets into trouble, she wants a plan B, for her and her children. I don't think anyone was thinking about how that would prop up the housing market 30 years later.
      • lokar5 hours ago
        And to give women full agency over their own lives
        • philipallstar5 hours ago
          No one has full agency over their life. The men who generally work harder, longer, and for more of their lives, that are shorter as a result, don't have fully agency. Having a boss isn't agency.
          • asadotzler3 hours ago
            Women couldn't have bank accounts, in my lifetime.
          • komali23 hours ago
            Ok, then, to give women as much agency as men have.
  • outside12346 hours ago
    "We want to be ready to grift public money at a moment's notice, but there are still opportunities to grift private money right now, so we are holding off."
  • fear915 hours ago
    I don’t get what’s the point of non-profits if you can IPO them. How does that make any sense?
    • wmf5 hours ago
      They're IPOing a commercial subsidiary of OpenAI so that it can donate even more money to the parent nonprofit.

      (Actually the subsidiary is everything and the nonprofit is a do-nothing fig leaf but the IRS and Congress seem to not care enough to stop them.)

      • Yizahi5 hours ago
        Checks and balances dear sirs and madams, checks and balances. Excepts apparently it meant cheques used to top up account balances.
        • 5 hours ago
          undefined
      • siren20262 hours ago
        Just the fact that they still calling themselves OpenAI is so grotesque.

        Similar to Google with "Don't be evil". At least they got the decency to eventually remove it when they realized they were actually doing evil.

      • Atreiden5 hours ago
        But then private shareholders are able to extract shareholder value from the subsidiary, so the "nonprofit" component is utterly meaningless here.

        How is this not illegal? What prevents any nonprofit from doing this to sidestep its filing status and extract profit?

        • Tuna-Fish4 hours ago
          Every step taken by the nonprofit leadership has to be, (or at least seem to be at the time), net positive for the stated goal of the nonprofit. To be legal, the IPO needs to be a net gain for the nonprofit.

          It can easily be that, if they believe that the capital it raises increases the long-term value of the company by a greater multiple than the proportion of the company that is lost from the nonprofit to outside investors.

          The primary example of this is Novo Nordisk (the Ozempic company). Their largest shareholder is, through an intermediary, the Novo Nordisk Foundation, which is one of the largest charities in the world. Nordisk used to be a charity that owned 100% of it's own labs and facilities, but in 1989 they realized that they were just too small, and would get trampled by larger international players without greatly increasing their scope. So they made their subsidiary go public (through a complex merger, not an IPO), and now only own 28% of it, instead of 100%. But, in large part because of the capital that going public brought them, despite constantly distributing money for research and charity, that's 28% of a company that's more than 100x bigger that what they used to be. And they retained 77% voting control.

        • bwhiting23564 hours ago
          not to be a shill, but isn't it good for the non-profit to own a big piece of a successful company?
          • swores4 hours ago
            I think it depends on context.

            If the private subsidiary was doing semi-unrelated stuff to the goals of the non-profit, and using it to fund the non-profit, then your logic could make sense - for example if a cancer research charity owned a profitable business and funnelled the profits up to spend on research, great.

            But in OpenAI's case, the claimed goals of the non-profit were essentially "do AI in a way that puts safety above profits". And whether or not one agrees with their previous approach to safety, or even whether safety needs to be cared about, it's undeniable that the for-profit business isn't acting as useful fundraising for the non-profit's goals, it's literally acting in the opposite direction.

            • JumpCrisscross4 hours ago
              > it's undeniable that the for-profit business isn't acting as useful fundraising for the non-profit's goals, it's literally acting in the opposite direction

              It's generally not up to your or to me, it's up to the donors to the non-profit. If what you find to be undeniable is very much deniable to them, then that is their right.

              The only question of public concern is whether OpenAI, Inc., a charity, meets the exemption requirements [1].

              [1] https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organiz...

        • yieldcrv4 hours ago
          A few things, but they work very well for our industry.

          The rule is that the nonprofit and disqualified persons (mostly board members), cant own businesses together, well they can but not more than 35% of it together, and a max of 20% can have voting capability

          The consequences arent immediate, non profits have 3 years to correct this

          Now in the tech industry, getting VCs involved is already the plan from day one and founders get diluted, so getting below 35% is either easy, or easy within 3 years

          so they’re fine

          there’s a lot of things they can all do to deal with the share consolidation

    • ghshephard5 hours ago
      See: https://www.axios.com/2023/11/18/how-openai-board-is-structu... for the OpenAI Structure.

      1) In order to fund research - this stuff costs 10s of billions of dollars - everyone, from Ilya, to Elon, to Sam - all agreed that they would require a profit-arm to raise money. Nobody was going to sponsor that 10s of billions of dollars to a non-profit.

      2) The non profit is still there - and controls the commercial element.

      • alpinisme5 hours ago
        “Controls”

        That will be especially untrue after IPO when shareholders can claim there are fiduciary responsibilities that conflict with the non profit goals.

        • JumpCrisscross5 hours ago
          > when shareholders can claim there are fiduciary responsibilities that conflict with the non profit goals

          The for-profit has fiduciary responsibility to the non-profit as well as other shareholders. The IPO doesn't really change that.

        • alextheparrot4 hours ago
          The for-profit is a PBC with the sane mission at the nonprofit [0]

          [0] https://openai.com/index/built-to-benefit-everyone/

        • super2565 hours ago
          The non profit is a big shareholder of the commercial subsidiary
      • JumpCrisscross5 hours ago
        > non profit is still there - and controls the commercial element

        The non-profit hasn't controlled squat since they tried and failed to fire Sam Altman.

      • argee5 hours ago
        > Nobody was going to sponsor that 10s of billions of dollars to a non-profit

        How much has MacKenzie Scott donated to non-profits again?

        Seems like such a claim is on thin ice.

    • tedsanders5 hours ago
      The nonprofit (OpenAI Foundation) owns ~26% of the for-profit, plus some extra warrants.

      The for-profit (OpenAI Group PBC) is what's filing the S-1 Draft.

      The OpenAI Foundation also exclusively appoints the board of the OpenAI Group PBC and can replace directors at any time.

      https://openai.com/our-structure/

      (I work at OpenAI, but I am not a lawyer and am not speaking on behalf of OpenAI - just sharing my personal understanding.)

      • ncruces4 hours ago
        > The OpenAI Foundation also exclusively appoints the board of the OpenAI Group PBC and can replace directors at any time.

        Isn't it hard to write this with a straight face?

      • to11mtm4 hours ago
        If they truly wanted it to be in the benefit of the not-for-profit and safe from interference, the ownership by the foundation would be much closer to or just over 50%.... just thinking out loud...
        • chippiewill3 hours ago
          The magic 50% ownership isn't relevant for that purpose. There are special provisions which means that the Foundation effectively exerts full control over the company because it appoints the entire board.
    • 4 hours ago
      undefined
    • yieldcrv4 hours ago
      The corporation selling shares is just primarily owned by the non profit

      The corporation selling shares is subject to normal corporate tax regime

      The real answer to your question is that non profits can own shares, and there is no legal difference between passive investment of other publicly traded companies and highly consolidated shares of a private company. In the US it is seen as merely happenstance that we have such a liquid market where the shares themselves can rapidly change in value and create profits, but there is nothing controversial about that.

    • 486sx335 hours ago
      [dead]
    • an0malous5 hours ago
      There is no point, it’s just government sanctioned virtue signaling
  • shillsimon5 hours ago
    [dead]
  • Traumen4 hours ago
    [dead]
  • Traumen4 hours ago
    [dead]
  • aiisascam3 hours ago
    [dead]
  • cloudengineer945 hours ago
    Here we go
  • dzonga5 hours ago
    why not let it be public ?
  • chronci37405 hours ago
    Too late.

    Interest in the SpaceX, Anthropic, and OpenAI IPO is already dropping

    • lellow5 hours ago
      Why do you say this? It's OK to make such a bold statement, but you gotta share how you came to this conclusion. This helps with a good discussion.
    • Helloworldboy5 hours ago
      [dead]
  • mlmonkey6 hours ago
    What's the point of a "confidential S-1"?? Isn't the S-1 supposed to inform potential investors?!? So ... shouldn't it _not_ be confidential??
    • JumpCrisscross5 hours ago
      > What's the point of a "confidential S-1"?

      “Under the JOBS Act, it has been possible since April 2012 for ‘emerging growth companies’ to file a Form S-1 on a confidential basis, only making the contents public 21 days prior to the road show for the IPO” [1]. Since 2017 and 2025 it’s been available to basically all companies [2].

      Withdrawing an IPO looks bad. Confidential filing lets issuers start and have the option to abort the process without taking reputational damage. (The specifics of OpenAI’s filing, and any back and forth with the SEC, remains confidential.)

      [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_S-1

      [2] https://www.sec.gov/about/divisions-offices/division-corpora...

    • throw0101a6 hours ago
      Note the word "Draft".

      Once it no longer is being drafted—and agreed upon by all parties to meet the needed regulatory standards—it will become final and be publicly published.

    • tyre6 hours ago
      The SEC needs to review it before approving a company to go public at all. It’s targeted at investors but they need to clear it, ask questions, demand changes, etc.
    • simonw6 hours ago
      Anthropic did exactly the same thing on June 1st: https://www.anthropic.com/news/confidential-draft-s1-sec
    • uxhacker5 hours ago
      Also according to the Financial Times that this confidential filling gives employees who are considering to sell shares transparency.
  • lifeisstillgood5 hours ago
    I find the irony delicious that this S1 will be fed into ChatGPT so often looking for flaws and edge cases that the LLM will develop sentience just to tell people to stop…
  • koolba6 hours ago
    Would be hilarious if they used an LLM to write it and it started hallucinating revenue streams and numbers.
    • stanmancan5 hours ago
      I’m pretty sure they’re smart enough to remember to put “make no mistakes” in their prompt.
  • rfgplk5 hours ago
    Companies IPOing should be forced to put up their estimated market cap as collateral in cash. Oh what is that? You don't have $1 trillion in cash to put up? Cool, you're not a $1 trillion dollar company then.
    • csallen5 hours ago
      This makes no sense. Market cap and cash reserves are two different stats for a reason. Why would they need to be the same? Just to make things simpler for people who don't actually know what market cap means? (Which, granted, is the vast majority of people.)
    • farrellm235 hours ago
      This makes no sense: the whole point is to raise capital. The valuation is never just the current value of the assets; it’s based on the expected future cash flows. A good example is in biotech, some researcher developed a treatment and wants to develop a product. They have valuable IP but zero money. So they IPO to raise capital to bring the treatment to market. The investors expect that in the future, they will get dividends or a buyout.
    • twosdai5 hours ago
      If a company that wanted to IPO had 1 trillion dollars, their market cap would have to be larger than their cash holding. Their cash on hand is considered or at least should be considered in any normal valuation of the company. Because shares are ownership of the company.

      So a simple valuation would be something like Current Cash + Assets + Expected Future cash - (Expenses + Risk)

    • echoangle5 hours ago
      Where would a company ever get their market cap in cash? If they had that, wouldn’t they by definition have a higher market cap, since the value of the company is cash + the rest of the company?
      • JumpCrisscross5 hours ago
        > since the value of the company is cash + the rest of the company?

        Failing companies sometimes trade below cash value. OP's basically creating a rule by which only failing companies are allowed to go public. (Or those who have paid a king's ransom to a megabank.)

    • jandrese4 hours ago
      In theory the purpose of an IPO is to raise cash to expand a company. If the company already has the cash they don't need to do an IPO.
    • verbify5 hours ago
      Companies always trade at a premium to book, so how would that work?
      • lmm24 minutes ago
        Some companies trade at a discount to book value (very normal for banks, for example, especially those from e.g. Pakistan).
      • missedthecue5 hours ago
        Last year Chegg was trading below net cash (meaning their market cap was smaller than cash in the bank minus debt). Might still be, I haven't checked in a while. There were maybe a hundred on the Tokyo stock exchange trading below net cash.
    • lanthissa5 hours ago
      the marketcap represents the cashflow estimated by the market to be taken out of the business over the lifetime of the company discounted today.

      your suggestion makes no sense

    • kommunicate5 hours ago
      ...what?
    • xorgun5 hours ago
      [dead]